Cookie Lab
New member
themightytimmah said:
Curious, how so?
Are you annoyed with the high gas prices?
- Thread starter jetset4me
- Start date
Curious, how so?
imported_themightytimmah
New member
Cookie Lab said:
Let's say we each drive 10,000 miles a year. I get 12 mpg currently, you get 50. Right now I'm burning 833 gallons a year, you're burning 200. We then both upgrade our cars to hybrids, raising my gas mileage to 15 and yours to 100.
You're down to 100 gallons a year, and I'm down to 667 - a savings of 100 gallons in your case, and 166 in mine.
In a weird way, replacing a Sierra 1500 with a 1500H has a greater positive environmental impact than replacing a Civic with a Prius.
smokinfastlegen
New member
Some statistics for your guys to ponder:
Everyone says the United States is the largest oil consumer in the world. This may be true, but only because the size of the United States makes it one of the largest entities in the world, but in all honesty, for its size it can be considered one of the least users of crude oil per sq mile. Taking size measurements based on the Wikipedia for the comparison (comparing the US, to Europe [since Europe is close to the size of the US] to then Japan) and oil consumption from nationmaster.com, the US is not the biggest user, but in all actuality Japan is. How do i come to the conclusion? Here is how:
The US is 3,794,066 sq miles in size with a daily consumption (based off nationmaster) of 20,730,000 barrels a day of crude oil. This equates to 5.46 barrels used per day per sq mile.
Europe is 3,930,000 sq miles in size with a daily consumption (based off nationmaster by combining consumption from the many countries of Europe, some not being represented) of 19,431,080 barrel a day of crude oil (some countries were not represented because data was not available.) This equates to 4.944 barrels used per day per sq mile.
With these measurements, Europe is only 135,934 square miles larger then the US.
Which in all honesty, makes Europe the second leading user of oil in the world.
But this next number I consider staggering.
Japan is the third leading country behind the US and China for oil consumption with a square mileage of 145,883 square miles. Their daily oil consumption is 5,578,000 barrels per day. Not much compared to these other areas, or is it? This means that Japan uses 38.236 barrels of oil per day per sq mile. With this estimate in size, Japan is 26x smaller then the United States. If Japan were to be the size of the United States and were to keep up with their oil consumption per square mile, their daily usage would be roughly 145,000,000 barrels of crude oil per day.
If you see a hole in my logic, please point it out. I figured these numbers because im sick and tired of people trying to say we are energy hogs, when in all honesty, Japan is a bigger energy hog then the US.
Everyone says the United States is the largest oil consumer in the world. This may be true, but only because the size of the United States makes it one of the largest entities in the world, but in all honesty, for its size it can be considered one of the least users of crude oil per sq mile. Taking size measurements based on the Wikipedia for the comparison (comparing the US, to Europe [since Europe is close to the size of the US] to then Japan) and oil consumption from nationmaster.com, the US is not the biggest user, but in all actuality Japan is. How do i come to the conclusion? Here is how:
The US is 3,794,066 sq miles in size with a daily consumption (based off nationmaster) of 20,730,000 barrels a day of crude oil. This equates to 5.46 barrels used per day per sq mile.
Europe is 3,930,000 sq miles in size with a daily consumption (based off nationmaster by combining consumption from the many countries of Europe, some not being represented) of 19,431,080 barrel a day of crude oil (some countries were not represented because data was not available.) This equates to 4.944 barrels used per day per sq mile.
With these measurements, Europe is only 135,934 square miles larger then the US.
Which in all honesty, makes Europe the second leading user of oil in the world.
But this next number I consider staggering.
Japan is the third leading country behind the US and China for oil consumption with a square mileage of 145,883 square miles. Their daily oil consumption is 5,578,000 barrels per day. Not much compared to these other areas, or is it? This means that Japan uses 38.236 barrels of oil per day per sq mile. With this estimate in size, Japan is 26x smaller then the United States. If Japan were to be the size of the United States and were to keep up with their oil consumption per square mile, their daily usage would be roughly 145,000,000 barrels of crude oil per day.
If you see a hole in my logic, please point it out. I figured these numbers because im sick and tired of people trying to say we are energy hogs, when in all honesty, Japan is a bigger energy hog then the US.
Cookie Lab
New member
It's rather fallacious to measure consumption by barrels per SQ mile as it trivializes the individual and his/her choices as a consumer.
If I'm the only person in my household and I commute to work every day and use 2 gallons of gas, yet my neighbor is a three person household and uses a combined 3 gallons of gas for all three of them to get to work/school, would it make sense to trumpet my household as being more energy conservative than my neighbors'? Perhaps technically, however why create an artificial boundary like "per household" or "per SQ mile" to spin the numbers when the real "boundary" is per individual and his/her choices?
The only measurement of consumption that makese sense is per person or per capita.
If I'm the only person in my household and I commute to work every day and use 2 gallons of gas, yet my neighbor is a three person household and uses a combined 3 gallons of gas for all three of them to get to work/school, would it make sense to trumpet my household as being more energy conservative than my neighbors'? Perhaps technically, however why create an artificial boundary like "per household" or "per SQ mile" to spin the numbers when the real "boundary" is per individual and his/her choices?
The only measurement of consumption that makese sense is per person or per capita.
smoknfastlegend said:
smokinfastlegen
New member
Cookie Lab said:
If the information were more recent, i would post that, but what im trying to get at is people always say that America uses the most oil, but if you were to compare sizes of the countries, it puts the oil consumption in perspective compared to the rest of the world. According to the same website, that has per capita info based off 2004-05 info says the US is actually 15th in per capita use of oil. Link: NationMaster - Oil > Consumption (per capita) (most recent) by country
The numbers i mentioned earlier is so many can see that the US's consumption isnt as outrageous as they would like us to believe. Im sure if you were to compare the consumption of individual states compared to countries in europe, they would be fairly similar. Instead they would rather cause shock and not take the US's size into consideration.
sevenrd
New member
smoknfastlegend said:
I don't understand your argument...
Russia is about 6,500,000 sq. miles, contains about 2.1 % of the world population and uses about 2.5 million barrels/day.
China is about 3,600,000 sq. miles, contains about 19% of the world population and uses about 6.5 million barrels/day.
The U.S. is about 3,500,000 sq. miles, contains about 4.5 % of the world population and uses 20+ million barrels/day.
Sources
List of countries by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
NationMaster - Oil > Consumption (most recent) by country
List of - Biggest Cities in the World, Highest Mountains, Deepest Spot in the Ocean, Longest Rivers - Worldatlas.com
EdLancer
New member
sevenrd said:
That looks about right, the US and Canada pollutes the most per capita !
This is a great article about Oil Speculation and its effect on prices. It was written when Oil was at $67 a barrel. He offers a solution which is easily within Congress or the SEC's (Securities and Exchange Commission) reach.
The Danger of Speculation by Mike Norman
The Danger of Speculation by Mike Norman
03SilverDak
New member
Jace said:
I might be wrong but if the british pound is worth almost double to the us dollar. then when we convert our prices to the britsh pound that would make our gas prices over 8 dollars a gallon depends on location. diesel would be almost 10 dollars a gallon. so really we are basically paying what you are for gas and diesel at the pumps.
imported_mburnickas
New member
BINGO! throw in the crappy dollar and UK high taxes, we are more still. But for fuel price in my car, I could careless on the price. Now food prices, fert for grass is another story..The major issue I have is the price increase on fuel on the stock market is speculation and nothing else.
Problem I see daily, is people still love the SUV's but whine about fuel...No one told you to buy a 12 mpg SUV people.
Problem I see daily, is people still love the SUV's but whine about fuel...No one told you to buy a 12 mpg SUV people.
sevenrd
New member
mburnickas said:
Actually, little of the price is speculation. It's simple supply and demand. We've been on a plateau of global oil production for around 3 years. Meanwhile, demand as continued to grow, out-pacing supply. Once global production begins its inevitable decline, expect $4 gas to look like the good old days.
"...the futures market is a zero sum game. For every long position there is a short position and the price is ultimately struck by the individual who takes delivery of the oil - which is then refined and purchased by a consumer. For so long as consumers keep demanding oil at ever higher prices, the price will continue to rise.
The only way speculation could impact the oil price is under accumulation. Inventories of crude oil and refined products have been falling for a year."
http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/4007
imported_Yal
New member
03SilverDak said:
Ummm yes you are wrong. Sorry dude, wrong math. Its almost $2 to 1 pound sterling NOT the other way round
So $4 dollar gas in the USA is actually 2 pound sterling gas in the USA. The Brits are paying $10 a gallon for gasoline if you convert, we are paying $4 and change.
Let me simplify even further...
If we were using UK pound sterling here in the USA to buy gas we would only be paying 2 pounds sterling a gallon. People in the UK are paying almost 5 pound sterling for a gallon
Crude Awakening: Behind the Surge in Oil Prices
Crude Awakening: Behind the Surge in Oil Prices - Economic Letter, May 2008 - FRB Dallas
And for the manipulation conspiracy:
Oil trading probe may uncover manipulation - May. 30, 2008
Crude Awakening: Behind the Surge in Oil Prices - Economic Letter, May 2008 - FRB Dallas
And for the manipulation conspiracy:
Oil trading probe may uncover manipulation - May. 30, 2008
imported_mburnickas
New member
sevenrd said:
There was a big sotry on CNN and yahoo last week that the market prices are based on speculation. There was some GOV that is now looking into it. Even a quote that like OPEC said it was based on this.
I agree with what you are saying but demand is DOWN and prices are going up.
imported_truzoom
New member
I have now stopped filling up the entire gas tank on my truck. There isn't really any logic to this decision but it makes me feel better about the prices.
I figure if I only fill up to the half mark, I put in roughly 11 gallons of 87 which shouldn't exceed $50 here in OK. I usually just drive to/from work and to the store and movies sometimes. That is also 11-12 gallons of gas that I don't have to carry around so I guess it's around 70-75lbs of free'd up weight.
If I get started on my diet and drop 20-30 lbs, that's 100lb of weight I don't have to carry around in my vehicle.
Like I said, there's not really any logic to it but I feel better.
I figure if I only fill up to the half mark, I put in roughly 11 gallons of 87 which shouldn't exceed $50 here in OK. I usually just drive to/from work and to the store and movies sometimes. That is also 11-12 gallons of gas that I don't have to carry around so I guess it's around 70-75lbs of free'd up weight.
If I get started on my diet and drop 20-30 lbs, that's 100lb of weight I don't have to carry around in my vehicle.
Like I said, there's not really any logic to it but I feel better.
charlesaferg
New member
jfsully said:
...Ya think? :idea
sevenrd said:
Yay for China as a role model!
Terrible comparison. Why?
Well...
Chinese Air Pollution... Yet still more reccuring scars of Chinese dictatorship...
"Industrial pollution has its most severe impact on the poor and in China, pollution incidents have been so serious as to be the cause of rioting in recent years. The lack of democracy and the level of corruption in development of factories and plants is a source of tension."
The actual figured are staggering, over half a million and beyond die or die prematurely directly from various forms of industrial pollution.
Russia... The Baltic, and the irrepairable remnants of the Soviet Era.
Or, Chinese poor! While the upper class flourishes on the US's need for random junk...
...or better yet, lets talk about Russia...
autoweenie
New member
Actually, I am more annoyed at:
1. The President and his lackey VP who could have used the bully pulpit to tell us to conserve (immediate effect on demand) but instead just want to drill, drill, and drill (lucky to see more supply in 10 years). What do you expect from the R. party.
2. The congress who has more than 25 years to address our energy issues but did nothing. Now, they are playing the populist card blaming everyone in sight - OPEC, Big Oil, speculators, etc (since we are at it, why don't we add the Jews to the list). What do you expect form the D. party.
3. The American public (R and D party) who collectively uses 144 billion gallons of gasoline every year and think cheap gas is our birthright.
I would expect all this from some third rate country - but from a great republic that won WWII and won the subsequent peace, put men on the moon, sent probes to Mars - amazing - must be all frigging stupid luck!
1. The President and his lackey VP who could have used the bully pulpit to tell us to conserve (immediate effect on demand) but instead just want to drill, drill, and drill (lucky to see more supply in 10 years). What do you expect from the R. party.
2. The congress who has more than 25 years to address our energy issues but did nothing. Now, they are playing the populist card blaming everyone in sight - OPEC, Big Oil, speculators, etc (since we are at it, why don't we add the Jews to the list). What do you expect form the D. party.
3. The American public (R and D party) who collectively uses 144 billion gallons of gasoline every year and think cheap gas is our birthright.
I would expect all this from some third rate country - but from a great republic that won WWII and won the subsequent peace, put men on the moon, sent probes to Mars - amazing - must be all frigging stupid luck!
sevenrd
New member
????
I mentioned nothing about air pollution or China being any sort of role model.
I was simply pointing out that comparisons of total square mileage vs. oil consumption made no sense to me with regards to a previous poster's quote of:
"...what im trying to get at is people always say that America uses the most oil, but if you were to compare sizes of the countries, it puts the oil consumption in perspective compared to the rest of the world...The numbers i mentioned earlier is so many can see that the US's consumption isnt as outrageous as they would like us to believe..."
The numbers I posted spell otherwise. That's all.
I mentioned nothing about air pollution or China being any sort of role model.
I was simply pointing out that comparisons of total square mileage vs. oil consumption made no sense to me with regards to a previous poster's quote of:
"...what im trying to get at is people always say that America uses the most oil, but if you were to compare sizes of the countries, it puts the oil consumption in perspective compared to the rest of the world...The numbers i mentioned earlier is so many can see that the US's consumption isnt as outrageous as they would like us to believe..."
The numbers I posted spell otherwise. That's all.
charlesaferg said:...Ya think? :idea
Yay for China as a role model!
Terrible comparison. Why?
Well...
Chinese Air Pollution... Yet still more reccuring scars of Chinese dictatorship...
"Industrial pollution has its most severe impact on the poor and in China, pollution incidents have been so serious as to be the cause of rioting in recent years. The lack of democracy and the level of corruption in development of factories and plants is a source of tension."
The actual figured are staggering, over half a million and beyond die or die prematurely directly from various forms of industrial pollution.
Russia... The Baltic, and the irrepairable remnants of the Soviet Era.
Or, Chinese poor! While the upper class flourishes on the US's need for random junk...
...or better yet, lets talk about Russia...
imported_truzoom
New member
CarWeenie said:
Capitalism, by definition, derivatively breeds conflict of interest. I'm not a communist and I'm not anti-capitalistic -- I am just aware that most ideas are not 100% pure.
Maybe I'm a conspiracy theory nut, though. If we have bluetooth earpieces, iPhones and open MRIs, why don't we have cars that run on cheap, renewable fuel? If I had millions invested in oil companies, I'd want to make sure that I was earning a nice chunk of change -- I would maybe even support lobbying Congress to ignore alternative energy bills. I'm stickin' to this theory too because I'm convinced anyone who thinks otherwise is either oblivious to the global situation or has money invested in big oil. :scared: