Are coatings flexible?

M

Mike lambert

New member
As I recuperate from back surgery, I have had the chance to listen to a lot of podcasts involving Kevin Brown. He brings up the fact that paint is a structure which is flexible and as such expands and contracts with temperature changes. Which make me think with all this time on my hands, are coatings flexing also? Modesta shows how hard it is by showing cubes of products, all kinds of claims of 9h hardness and the ever popular lighter strikes. So if they are that hard, are they still flexing with the paint? How would you tell? Just thinking!
 
Kevin Brown makes one think that's for sure. It's an interesting topic as he was speaking on the latest podcast. There have been some great podcasts with him and Larry.
 
i asked that question in a previous thread and i think i offended some coating pros here but it just made me think so hard i had to ask.

the last podcast made me think too... water spots only appearing after you heat it up with an infrared light? would that mean whoever did the compound/polish did not do a good enough job of perfecting the paint?

and are these podcast with larry and kevin really an attack on coatings? im sure they arent but it just seems that way
 
donbeezy said:
i asked that question in a previous thread and i think i offended some coating pros here but it just made me think so hard i had to ask.

the last podcast made me think too... water spots only appearing after you heat it up with an infrared light? would that mean whoever did the compound/polish did not do a good enough job of perfecting the paint?
Click to expand...

No, I think the point is that the defect looks "gone" under any kind of light when the polishing is initially accomplished, but comes back once the paint cools. After a close visual inspection, it might have looked "good enough" causing the detailer to move to the next area.

Frankly, this is such an advanced topic that I seriously doubt 99% of people could speak on it in an educated fashion. I know Larry markets his "coating" as being flexible, but who knows. I don't put a lot of stock in what any coating distributor says. Only the people that really understand the chemistry of paint and coatings know for sure.
 
Is a one inch thick piece of steel flexible?


If you pound it out to a thickness of 2 microns...is it flexible now?


When I attempt to bend a cake of wax, it breaks into pieces...is wax flexible?



I think this principle should be considered when discussing the flexibility of ceramic coatings.




.
 
imported_JustinTRW said:
No, I think the point is that the defect looks "gone" under any kind of light when the polishing is initially accomplished, but comes back once the paint cools. After a close visual inspection, it might have looked "good enough" causing the detailer to move to the next area.

Frankly, this is such an advanced topic that I seriously doubt 99% of people could speak on it in an educated fashion. I know Larry markets his "coating" as being flexible, but who knows. I don't put a lot of stock in what any coating distributor says. Only the people that really understand the chemistry of paint and coatings know for sure.
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so i know heating is frowned upon when polishing but would heating up in this case of a water spot be acceptable? or would even heating up a panel with a polisher make a water spot even show itself?
 
If coatings are not flexing with the paint, could you figure that out by looking at the paint through a magnifier or microscope? I would think you could see cracks in the coating, but I dont know? Does it matter if they dont flex with the paint? If they crack because of not being flexible, can chemicals and dirt get underneath the coating and become "trapped"? Think about undercoating on a frame. Most people recomend a oily product over a product that dries hard. Just rambling....

one thing I learned especially on this last podcast is you pretty well have to focus just on the podcast and what Kevin or Larry is saying. I was surfing the web while listening. Lets just say I got lost pretty quick. Now I have to go re-listen to it.

anyone listen to this one? He just had one on coatings

The Auto Detailing Podcast – Making You A Better Detailer
 
Jimbo's was a good one as well. His was implying that coatings are not the "end all be all" as he states. It's actually a good listen as well.
 
The Guz said:
Jimbo's was a good one as well. His was implying that coatings are not the "end all be all" as he states. It's actually a good listen as well.
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I agree. Definitely worth taking the time to listen to. He also has a hand full of other good podcasts. I came across his site a month or so ago. Seems like a great guy.
 
Innately, yes.
Paint is flexible. If a coating was not flexible, or "harder" than the underlying substrate, the coating would shatter, flake, and slowly chip off. There's no way coatings would last so long, if they weren't malleable.
Something to keep in mind, is the "9H" hardness rating purported by some products, is in the pencil/graphite hardness scale...not the mohs scale.
 
Oldfordisbetter said:
If coatings are not flexing with the paint, could you figure that out by looking at the paint through a magnifier or microscope? I would think you could see cracks in the coating, but I dont know? Does it matter if they dont flex with the paint? If they crack because of not being flexible, can chemicals and dirt get underneath the coating and become "trapped"? Think about undercoating on a frame. Most people recomend a oily product over a product that dries hard. Just rambling....

one thing I learned especially on this last podcast is you pretty well have to focus just on the podcast and what Kevin or Larry is saying. I was surfing the web while listening. Lets just say I got lost pretty quick. Now I have to go re-listen to it.

anyone listen to this one? He just had one on coatings

The Auto Detailing Podcast – Making You A Better Detailer
Click to expand...


pretty decent podcast and good info but he doesnt make you think like kevin/larry.

his voice is kind of bland too, i didnt listen to the entire thing cause i was just getting tired lol
 
Gtechniq Crystal Serum and Crystal Serum Light most certainly are!!! We have what is called a dual layer coating which during application the softer 7h coating sinks to the bottom and the harder 9h top coat floats to the top. This offers increased swirl resistance by allowing some flex under normal wear and tear.
 
etnops said:
Innately, yes.
Paint is flexible. If a coating was not flexible, or "harder" than the underlying substrate, the coating would shatter, flake, and slowly chip off. There's no way coatings would last so long, if they weren't malleable.
Something to keep in mind, is the "9H" hardness rating purported by some products, is in the pencil/graphite hardness scale...not the mohs scale.
Click to expand...

That is a very good point, coatings should only be judged on the pencil hardness scale not the mohs scale. It is just not feasible to have something that hard 9h mohs scale on you paint with out the chances of chipping and cracking under expansion and contraction.
 
This is great topic.

The question that comes to mind is that if these "coatings" are 9h or what ever "harder" means does this then restrict the paint in its expansion and contraction and does this then create other issues down the road.

It makes me think that Opti might be the best option since the good Dr specializes in car paint and such.
 
so i was thinking last night "if i had a coating, how would i test it?"

would applying a coating to say foil paper? let it harden/cure then maybe peeling the foil paper backwards? if a coating is so hard, it would retain the shape of the foil paper once was. if nothing is standing by itself, it was flexible with the foil paper.

maybe im just being silly
 
donbeezy said:
i asked that question in a previous thread and i think i offended some coating pros here but it just made me think so hard i had to ask.

the last podcast made me think too... water spots only appearing after you heat it up with an infrared light? would that mean whoever did the compound/polish did not do a good enough job of perfecting the paint?

and are these podcast with larry and kevin really an attack on coatings? im sure they arent but it just seems that way
Click to expand...

I think you need to listen to it again. This is simply an issue that some installers have come across, including me. The thought or belief is that the spots were originally formed on a very hot day while the paint was in an expanded (hot) state. After the paint had cooled and contracted the spots were no longer visible. When the cars come in for paint correction there are no visible spots at any time during the prep, correction, wipe down, or coating. It's only when then panel was being heated with IR to cure the coating that the spots start to appear. On the car I did it was only 3 panels were these appeared and not the whole car. The belief is that the coating fills in the pores when it's in that expanded state so that when it cools again the spots a remain. The idea of polishing the paint when it was heated was to remove the spots while it's in that expanded state.

I've been coating cars for 6 year now and Audi is the only car I've had this happen on, not something you come across very often. Here are a couple before pics of the panels that spots appeared on....see any spots?





After polishing


 
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