Anyone try Chem Guys new foam gun?
- Thread starter mystickid
- Start date
SuperBee364
New member
Accumulator said:
Forgive me for "puting words in the mouth" of Accumulator, but I think the point is that when you use his "Dislodge and Flush" method, huge amounts of foam are not really good; the continual flushing/rinsing action of a steady sream of water/soap is far more important.
However, laying down a good thick layer of foam (that has good chemical cleaning power), letting it dwell, then high pressure blasting it off *is* a good way to start a wash. It'll get rid of a ton of the larger abrasives (aka "dirt"), so you don't take them for a ride across your clear coat underneath your wash mitt.
Barry Theal said:
His car washing method seriously needs to be stickied at the top of every forum. Prior to the release of M105/M205 and the KBM method, there was little worry that the hobbyist was ever going to over-thin their car's clear coat; the DA just didn't have the chops to remove much, and yearly (or even more often) polishings weren't going to hurt.
Now, however, the big emphasis of this forum should shift from polishing to maintaining a mar free finish so that polishing is done *once*. THE VERY MOST IMPORTANT THING TO MAINTAIN A POLISH JOB IS THE WASH! There are gonna be some sad people... those that continue to do the 105/205 polishing frequently because the swirls keep coming back (from, for lack of a better word, "bad" washing technique) are going to be thinning out their clear coats to dangerous levels.
Make no mistake about it: It doesn't matter how many buckets you use, if you are smashing a wash mitt onto dirty paint and rubbing, you *are* swirling the paint. With two buckets, you are simply depositing the abrasive dirt into the second bucket after the dirt has already been taken for a ride across your clear coat under the mitt.
That's why his method is called "Dislodge and flush;" after the dirt is gently dislodged from the paint, water/soap stream from his foam gun flushes it off the paint.
Bucket/mitt washes should be called "dislodge and scour," 'cause after the dirt is dislodged into the mitt, it is then taken for a ride under the mitt across your paint (where it scours, swirls, scratches the paint) until you remove the dirt in the second bucket.
Accumulator said:
Accumulator said:
To emphasize the two quotes above... the dirt on your car, when compared to the particle size used in abrasive polishes, is *HUGE*. Anything you can do to remove as much of "the big stuff" prior to touching your mitt to the paint is gonna reduce swirling. The main goal should be to remove as much dirt from the vehicle (both large and small particles) prior to getting jiggy with a mitt.
Kinda like this...
1. High pressure rinse first. This will remove a lot of the big stuff.
2. Lay down a layer of foam, using a car soap that has good chemical cleaning. Let it dwell a bit.
3. High pressure spray the foam off. Now you've removed even more abrasive dirt, and you still haven't touched the paint.
4. Use the "Dislodge and flush" method with a BHB (Boar's Hair Brush) to safely flick the dirt off your paint (with the brush) while simultaneously flushing it off with a stream of soap/water, or even just water. Now you've removed even more dirt, and you still haven't taken any dirt for a ride across your paint under a mitt.
5. HP rinse.
6. Now at this point, the vast majority of abrasive dirt has been removed. You have two choices: 1. Now break out how ever many buckets you'd like, and do a traditional wash, or even better, 2. Do an ONR wash. By the time you've removed this much dirt, you are well within the limits of ONR's ability to safely remove what's left on the paint without swirling it.
7. Never use a drying towel on paint unless you are completely sure that the paint is *completely* free of all dirt, and even then it's risky. "California Water Blades" and the like, are absolute no-nos no matter *how* clean your car is.
IMO, the ONR as step 6 is safer than a mitt/bucket wash, regardless of mitt choice.
See above.machboy said:
Don't fool yourself by saying, "well, *I* use a very highly lubricated wash soap, so I can use a mitt safely."
Let's go back to polishes for a sec. The abrasive particles used in abrasive polishes are *highly* lubricated. *Much* more so than any wash soap could be. *And* the abrasive particles used in polishes are *much* smaller than the dirt on your car. And yet those tiny abrasive particles in polishes have *no problem* scratching your clear coat. In fact, that's *how they work*; by scratching your clear coat. There is simply *no way* that a lubed car soap is going to provide enough lube to those huge dirt particles to keep them from scratching your paint when they are taken for a ride under a wash mitt.
The very best thing you can do for your paint is to *not* touch it.
Only touch it when absolutely necessary. And when you wash, think the same way as when polishing: "use the least aggressive method *first*".
Honestly, a polishing job should be something you do *one time*. Not every six months, not every year. *Especially* if you're using 105/205 on a regular basis. Remember, every time you polish, you are *removing clear coat*, and that the clear coat is there for a *reason*: to protect the paint. Don't remove more than you have to; wash your car properly.
/rant
Accumulator
Well-known member
SuperBee364- That was a good post :xyxthumbs
You covered everything I woulda posted, and then some (I would've left out the ONR part since it doesn't quite work its magic for me). That was great, bringing up the polish/dirt analogy.
Still wish I could overcome the overspray issues and employ a pressure washer :think: I've been using a siphon-feed gizmo that hooks up to the compressor, but it's a pretty weak substitute....still does the prewash OK if the LSP is healthy.
And yeah...all the developments in compound/polish tech do make me wonder about how long some people's paintjobs are gonna last. It's sorta analogous to how these days anybody with a credit rating can buy a car capable of truly serious performance; used to be not everyone could cut mils of paint, just like it used to be that not everyone could go out and pull .9gs at 130 mph...now it's pretty easy to have all sorts of capability, but in the hands of the wrong people, look out.
You covered everything I woulda posted, and then some (I would've left out the ONR part since it doesn't quite work its magic for me). That was great, bringing up the polish/dirt analogy.
Still wish I could overcome the overspray issues and employ a pressure washer :think: I've been using a siphon-feed gizmo that hooks up to the compressor, but it's a pretty weak substitute....still does the prewash OK if the LSP is healthy.
And yeah...all the developments in compound/polish tech do make me wonder about how long some people's paintjobs are gonna last. It's sorta analogous to how these days anybody with a credit rating can buy a car capable of truly serious performance; used to be not everyone could cut mils of paint, just like it used to be that not everyone could go out and pull .9gs at 130 mph...now it's pretty easy to have all sorts of capability, but in the hands of the wrong people, look out.
imported_Bert
New member
Barry Theal said:
When ever I think of Accumulator I think of the Dos Equis guy. Maybe Accumulator's line should be: "Stay Mar Free My Friend".
Accumulator
Well-known member
Bert said:
Hey, I like that! I'd tweak it slightly, to "Stay Marring-free, My Friend".
SuperBee364
New member
Accumulator said:
Thank you, sir.
I still left out a big discourse about how using (and properly maintaining) a good LSP that easily releases dirt will help big time. A good quality, properly maintained LSP will often leave your car completely clean after step 3 (prior to using the BHB) or after step 4 (after the BHB), making additional aggression (mitt wash or ONR) completely unnecessary.
As to the ONR... Yeah, the more I use it, the more I agree with you. If a car is really dirty, and my only choices are either ONR or a traditional bucket/mitt wash, I'd still do the ONR over the mitt/bucket every time. However, ONR is not a completely a mar-free method when used on very dirty and/or very soft clear coats. But it does seem that it is pretty capable of safely cleaning very lightly dirty cars, such as what you'd have after HP rinse/foam/hp rinse/bhb. If a car is so dirty that it's still needing additional cleaning after the BHB, I would certainly grab the ONR over a bucket/mitt. The fact is that yeah, you're probably gonna end up doing some marring on a car that dirty, as you are now past all the least aggressive methods and there's still dirt on the car. So I guess at that point it becomes choosing the lesser of two evils: mitt/bucket or ONR. At least, by this point, enough of the dirt is removed to minimize the marring that will result from using either choice.
Edit: I've been getting much less marring with ONR since I started using it by pre-spraying each panel with ONR mixed up about 1.5 times stronger than the directions, and letting it dwell for 30 seconds or so before using a Eurow shag weave MF dripping wet with ONR solution to *lightly* wipe down the panel for the first pass. I do several *very light* passes on each panel before using another Eurow shag weave MF to *lightly* dry it. The less pressure, the better. The Eurow shag weave MF's have given me the best results with ONR so far. Much better than grout sponges, other MF's, etc.
If you guys haven't tried the Eurow shag weave MF's, you're really missing out.
imported_Bert
New member
Accumulator said:
You will have to figure out how to make that your signature under your posts, if that is even still possible with the upgrade????
Accumulator
Well-known member
Bert- Heh heh, I never know about those features...took me forever to even set up that "Practical Perfectionist".
SuperBee364- I'm always intrigued by your ONRing. Perhaps one reason why I have bad luck is that I generally let vehicles get you-wouldn't-believe dirty before I wash. But OTOH, I've tried it a few times on the beater-Audi when it was *almost* still a clean car, just washed the rear/lower 1/3 or so (rest of the car so clean I didn't touch it). Wouldn't you know, the only significant marring is where I ONRed it :nixweiss. Man, I was soooo gentle and yeah I did use a nice potent pre-soak.
Oh, and I still think it's weird how the ONR left the (845ed) surface feeling very less-than-slick :think: I read on the Optimum Forums how there's nothing in ONR that should do that, but it *did* do it nonetheless. I ended up redoing the panels in question whereas the rest of the vehicle didn't need anything like that.
Heh heh, every time I use ONR I end up wondering "why do I keep trying this?!?" but it is handy for those "just a few panels" type of cleanups. Too bad those few panels end up marred.
SuperBee364- I'm always intrigued by your ONRing. Perhaps one reason why I have bad luck is that I generally let vehicles get you-wouldn't-believe dirty before I wash. But OTOH, I've tried it a few times on the beater-Audi when it was *almost* still a clean car, just washed the rear/lower 1/3 or so (rest of the car so clean I didn't touch it). Wouldn't you know, the only significant marring is where I ONRed it :nixweiss. Man, I was soooo gentle and yeah I did use a nice potent pre-soak.
Oh, and I still think it's weird how the ONR left the (845ed) surface feeling very less-than-slick :think: I read on the Optimum Forums how there's nothing in ONR that should do that, but it *did* do it nonetheless. I ended up redoing the panels in question whereas the rest of the vehicle didn't need anything like that.
Heh heh, every time I use ONR I end up wondering "why do I keep trying this?!?" but it is handy for those "just a few panels" type of cleanups. Too bad those few panels end up marred.
Junebug
JAFO
I think it proves the old axiom of there's too many varibles to claim any detailing process as 100%. Except for the stupid -like don't wash with dirty mitts, even F. Gump knows that!
Accumulator
Well-known member
machboy said:
Gotta be a little careful as there can be huge differences in quality, an even seemingly great ones can have serious issues (adhesive contamination is a biggie).
See if you can find my BHB Comparison thread (search on my User-name, I don't start all that many threads).
Short answer- The Griot's one is probably the best overall choice for most people; some of the softer ones are actually *too* soft for effective cleaning of truly dirty vehicles.
SuperBee364
New member
Accumulator said:
That's another thread that needs to be stickied. I'll see if I have it in my subscribed threads...
I have a Montana Brushes (don't know if they're still around) BHB. It's around five years old now, and still passes the CD test. (CD test: dry brush your BHB on a CD or DVD and look for any scratches before using it on your car).
Whatever BHB you decide to go with, make sure it passes the CD test before you use it. You'll want to do the CD test occasionally as the brush gets used. Sometimes brushes will fail the CD test after they're used a bit.
Edit: Here's Accumulator's BHB thread... must read stuff: http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing-product-discussion/97827-bhb-comparison.html
Accumulator
Well-known member
SuperBee364 said:
It probably oughta be updated though, IIRC (and maybe I don't) there are some new BHBs on the market that I haven't tried.
Yeah, those are the "too soft" ones I use on things like the Jag, S8, and the Yukon.
HOLD IT, hold it, hold it.... do you really test them *DRY*?? I never even tried that with the Montana as my long-ago dry testing of the (perfectly OK when wet) Griot's resulted in horror-show scratches.
BHBs soften up *so* much when wet that I never test them dry any more than I'd dry-test a sheepskin mitt :think:
Yeah, my beloved *OLD* BHBs from Beverly Hills Motoring Accessories put some very faint marring in the S8 (yeah, I fixed it
) and subsequent testing showed that they'd simply worn down to where their flagged tips were now unflagged and too coarse. Sigh...I used those BHBs for maybe 20 years and they never lost bristles or had their wooden handles crack (well, not too badly).You simply gotta test them as you'll never notice minute, gradual wearing of the bristle tips until the damage has been done.
SuperBee364
New member
Accumulator said:HOLD IT, hold it, hold it.... do you really test them *DRY*?? I never even tried that with the Montana as my long-ago dry testing of the (perfectly OK when wet) Griot's resulted in horror-show scratches.
BHBs soften up *so* much when wet that I never test them dry any more than I'd dry-test a sheepskin mitt :think:
Yeah, my beloved *OLD* BHBs from Beverly Hills Motoring Accessories put some very faint marring in the S8 (yeah, I fixed it
You simply gotta test them as you'll never notice minute, gradual wearing of the bristle tips until the damage has been done.
Yeah, I do test them dry, but I can certainly see how a wet test with the soap/water combination to be used would be a good test, for sure, especially for some of the more aggressive bhb's.
Accumulator
Well-known member
SuperBee364 said:
Well, the fact that those Montanas pass the test when dry says a lot about their softness, guess it's no surprise that they can be too soft for cleaning seriously dirty vehicles.
Pretty sure that the little BHBs I use for tight spots wouldn't pass a dry test!
Accumulator
Well-known member
edplayer said:
Well, I replace SuperBee364's ONRing with *my version of* a conventional wash; I switch from the BHBs to mitts, still using a foamgun to provide constant lubrication and flushing.
I fill the mitt with shampoo solution and hold it shut at the cuff. Then I gently whisk it across the paint while spraying the point of mitt-to-paint contact with foamgun output. I refill the mitt after all the shampoo solution has seeped out of it and rinse it (if I haven't already decided to rinse/refill sooner due to the mitt getting dirty).
People with normal water pressure (mine is boosted) should probably stop and rinse the mitt out a lot more frequently than I do. With my setup, the foamgun will keep the mitt pretty clean if I do everything right (especially since the passes with BHBs have already gotten everything quite clean).