Am I Just Expecting Too Much From Detailing?

M

marks70

New member
Maybe its just not possible....



I have a Jet Black 2002 BMW 330Ci that I wanted to get professionally detailed due to swirl marks and light scratches. Although it looked fine in the shade, I couldn't stand the way it looked in the sun, especially with how OCD I am. At the advice of a number of people in a particular forum, I took my car to a detailer that people swore by. He was very nice, and we discussed at length his methods, products, and he even gave me a sample of his work. He said my paint was in generally good condition and stated that a "double-polish" would most likely eliminate a good majority of the swirls and scratches.



After working on my car for almost 3 hours, he presented my car to me. We backed it out into the sun, and although it looked better, I could still see scratches and swirls. Appreciating that he spent all that time on the car, I really didn't want to say anything negative and went home.



The next morning I looked at my car in the sun, and I could not believe how many scratches and swirls were still left in the paint. They were everywhere, and in some areas I thought my car looked worse than it did before I brought it in. He wet sanded one area, and now there are numerous light scratches in that area. I was and still am so frustrated because I was under the impression that my car's paint would look considerably better, almost new, after it was detailed. This leads me to my questions...



Is it possible to detail a black car and get the paint back to almost showroom condition? Is it possible to eliminate almost all swirls and scratches (those that you can't feel with your fingernail)? What exactly needs to be done to get it to that condition? Should I have had the car machine buffed - is polishing alone not sufficient? Or am I expecting the impossible considering the color of my car and need to accept light swirls and scratch marks as coming with the territory?



I hope you can help me with my frustration, and thanks for your input!
 
marks70 said:
Maybe its just not possible....



I have a Jet Black 2002 BMW 330Ci that I wanted to get professionally detailed due to swirl marks and light scratches. Although it looked fine in the shade, I couldn't stand the way it looked in the sun, especially with how OCD I am. At the advice of a number of people in a particular forum, I took my car to a detailer that people swore by. He was very nice, and we discussed at length his methods, products, and he even gave me a sample of his work. He said my paint was in generally good condition and stated that a "double-polish" would most likely eliminate a good majority of the swirls and scratches.



After working on my car for almost 3 hours, he presented my car to me. We backed it out into the sun, and although it looked better, I could still see scratches and swirls. Appreciating that he spent all that time on the car, I really didn't want to say anything negative and went home.



The next morning I looked at my car in the sun, and I could not believe how many scratches and swirls were still left in the paint. They were everywhere, and in some areas I thought my car looked worse than it did before I brought it in. He wet sanded one area, and now there are numerous light scratches in that area. I was and still am so frustrated because I was under the impression that my car's paint would look considerably better, almost new, after it was detailed. This leads me to my questions...



Is it possible to detail a black car and get the paint back to almost showroom condition? Is it possible to eliminate almost all swirls and scratches (those that you can't feel with your fingernail)? What exactly needs to be done to get it to that condition? Should I have had the car machine buffed - is polishing alone not sufficient? Or am I expecting the impossible considering the color of my car and need to accept light swirls and scratch marks as coming with the territory?



I hope you can help me with my frustration, and thanks for your input!
Click to expand...



OK.... so you're saying he did the work completely by hand, even the post-wetsanding compound/polishing? Sounds to me like this isn't a detailer you want to go to, because it sounds like he maybe doesn't know what he's doing.



My suggestion would be put a thread out in the proper section asking for an autopian detailer in your area to help you out. :xyxthumbs



I must assure you, bringing black back is DEFINITELY possible, as I and numerous others have done it before.
 
Black cars are difficult because every defect, not matter how small, shows on them. It is possible, however, to revive the paint. Without seeing any pictures, I would guess it needs to be polished with a Rotary buffer using a medium cut product, and then maybe followed by an orbital using a light cut product. Sounds like your detailer did not use the correct equipment or products, or both.
 
Black is very forgiving if you use the right steps (I am a veteren of black cars). Black can also be very unforgiving in revealing almost every defect of your paint and bodywork. If he did it by hand and it did not satisfy your expectations, then I'd suggest that you do some research on the many fine detailing polish and clean products, and strike out on your own.



I once neglected my previous car to the point where you could see heavy oxidation on its clearcoat paint (it was immaculate several months earlier). Being that I always detail my own vehicles, all I did was use a proven paint cleaner (gliptone pro buff), and it single handedly revived my paint to its original luster.



I am not saying that your car will react the same, but I am saying that you will need to try the right combination of products, and have a lot of patience (it takes time) until you get your paint to the condition that you expect.
 
Hey marks70!



Welcome to Autopia, Man!



First, I have to agree with Shiny Lil Detlr's

assesment. Maybe the guy is really a nice guy.

But based on what you posted, it sounds

like he had no business trying to wetsand the paint,

especially if it's OEM (I'm assumming it is OEM).



Now it may seem hypocritical since I and a lot of others

have done this procedure, but the skill level to deal with

this procedure is a bit higher among some folks here.

Personally, unless I'm dealing with a repaint, or some

other complex issue, wetsanding would be my very last

resort; especially when there are much less aggressive

methods to restore the finish. Sometimes the damage i deal

with is so severe that the best solution short of painting is

is to simply reduce the intensity of the damage by hiding

it or just doing a gentle polish (for me, doing a gentle

polish is using a dual action machine with tried and tested

products).



A lot of the folks here, both professional and enthusiats,

have a passion as well as the skill to do really great things.

Let us know where you're located, and I'm sure someone

in your region will be more than happy to help get your

cars paint back to tip-top.
 
Welcome to the forums dude and I'll chime in if I may.



Firstly I agree with the other replys.



I find it hard to beleive anyone would try and polish out swirls and scratches in this day and age by hand and or by first starting off with wetsanding.



In the car restoration fourms I hang out in there are some old timers who still polish by hand, but I think that's more from thier unwillingness to change with the times than it producing a better result



Well let's not rehash the past, when he pulled that car out into the sunlight you had your chance to express your displeasure with his work and let it slide, if it were me, nice guy or not, he'd been working on that car till retirement age not because of the severity of the probelm but from the apparent lack of skills.



But then considering the immediate use of sandpaper that might be a bad thing.



If you can't find someone from here to help you out then I would look in the Yellow pages for a detailer, you may even find one who specializes in German cars (reccommended)



Have them do a panel and inspect it, maybe just come back for the rest of the vehicle after your satisfied they can do the work.



Bottom line a showroom finish may be obtainable depending on the serverity of the marring and yes it will require machine polishing.



You may want to also look into how your washing and waxing your car so as to not induce further marring.



Keep us posted and good luck
 
marks70- Welcome to Autopia!



Not much I can add to what's already been posted. The guy you took it to didn't know what he was doing. Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon.



How nice it *can* be will depend on how badly marred it is. Some people can work near-miracles, the trick is to find those people.



Depending on the time/effort you can put into it, you might even want to try doing the job yourself. I think you'd be surprised at how well it might turn out ;)



As MorBid said, the real trick is to avoid re-introducing the marring. It's one thing to get the car looking nice again, but another thing to keep it that way. Note that you can only fix it so many times before you start running out of clearcoat.
 
If you have the extra time, energy, and money, tackle this yourself by first doing a little bit (or a lot, depending on your current detailing skills) of research here, asking more questions, getting answers, and buying some products to go along with your new knowledge...then go for it yourself!



However, you may just want to think about posting your dilemma in the Professional Detailer's section, or better yet looking up some detailers either in the PDTA or the Autopia Detailer's listing and finding an "Autopian" level detailer in your area...
 
Thanks for your responses so far. Just to clarify a couple things. First, there is probably some confusion being caused by my statement "Should I have had the car machine buffed". I'm assuming that machine polishing and machine buffing are different. He did machine polish my car; he did NOT do it by hand. Second, my paint is the factory paint.



Thanks again, and I am so glad I found this forum.
 
so does the new marring look like this at all? :

swirls.jpg
please note this is Anthony Orosco's picture that I am using for an example.





If so they can be easy to fix. Even you can do it if you want to take the money you would pay a detailer to fix the marring and invest in a PC and a few pads and a couple bottles of polish you can do it yourself and be able to fix future marring that is going to arise from washing ect (unless you wash like accumulator ;) )
 
If it's been wetsanded, take it to someone who is good with a rotary. Ask in the reginal forums for a referance. Its not unreasonable to get a black car completely swirl free, its just gonna cost (takes a LOT of time and talent). It took me about 4 hours to turn mine from a mess to a mirror, and that was with a rotary. Some of the bigger scratches are still there, but you only notice them in the right light.



From your description, it sounded like he did not use an aggressive enough polish to start. To really get a black car good, you need to start with a decent leveler (Powergloss, etc) and then use a finishing polish. It sounds like his first step was too mild.



In the meantime, your best bet is to glaze with Vanilla moose or similar. This will help to hide some of the marring, until you find somone to polish it out.



You could polish it out yourself, but its gonna take some SERIOUS time to do by PC. Based on your description, I'm gonna guess at 8 hours or so to get it to a level that you're happy with. If you've got the money, I'd suggest having it professionally polished out, apply your own LSP, and then buy a PC for future polishing. Look for someone off of Autopia, or who does cars for shows, if you're that picky.
 
Definantly post some pictures. Everyone here is very knowledgable and will be able to point you in the right direction.

Also, where are you located at?
 
marks70 said:
Just to clarify a couple things. First, there is probably some confusion being caused by my statement "Should I have had the car machine buffed". I'm assuming that machine polishing and machine buffing are different. He did machine polish my car; he did NOT do it by hand. Second, my paint is the factory paint..
Click to expand...



I myself wouldn't differentiate between "polishing" and "buffing", unless you mean "polishing" to mean "applying/working product" and "buffing" to be "removing product".



Factory paint *probably* means that it's still thick enough for most of the imperfections to be removed. You could probably make things a lot better (quite possibly good enough) with a PC/Cyclo for the same money that you'd pay a pro.



And if I had a black car I'd certainly "wash like Accumulator", but then, well, I'd rather work a little harder at washing and avoid all that polishing ;)
 
Accumulator said:
I myself wouldn't differentiate between "polishing" and "buffing", unless you mean "polishing" to mean "applying/working product" and "buffing" to be "removing product".



Factory paint *probably* means that it's still thick enough for most of the imperfections to be removed. You could probably make things a lot better (quite possibly good enough) with a PC/Cyclo for the same money that you'd pay a pro.



And if I had a black car I'd certainly "wash like Accumulator", but then, well, I'd rather work a little harder at washing and avoid all that polishing ;)
Click to expand...



Agreed. I differentiate between polishing/buffing in that same way too. :)



As for the factory paint still being thick enough to fix, all I can say is that I hope he started out with 1500 or 2000 grit, because with anything coarser than that, you'll be through the clearcoat like it was never even there. I have only done that once, and that was while trying to fix a rust repair; after body filler was put in I found that the surrounding area was stained from the rust, and 1500 grit didn't even touch it. I grabbed some 320 grit and took it down to bare metal, shot it with rust converting, self etching primer and built it back up from there with base and clear. Of course, I then had to break out the 2000 and 3000 grit along with some strong compound but it came out much better than it was before I started.



That obviously is an extreme example, but my point simply is that this guy could've used goodness knows what on the paint if he broke out the sandpaper instantly.
 
Sorry for not responding. I've been a way for the last several days. My car definitely does not look as bad as scottabir's picture. It simply does not look like a mirror finish. Light swirls and scratches are still all over the place. After I wash it (got rained on), I'll try to post some pictures.



So there is no difference between "machine polishing" and "machine buffing"? The detailer's price sheet listed them separately, with the detail that included machine buffing costing almost twice as much.



And, just to confirm, you are saying it is possible to get my car to near showroom condition, even when viewing it in the sun? I just don't want to have expectations that can't be meet.



I live east of San Francisco, in the Tri-Valley area. I've always hand waxed and polished, because I don't trust myself with a machine, especially on this car. I would love to find an "Autopian" level detailer in my area, so if anyone can refer me to one, I would greatly appreciate it.



Thanks again!
 
marks70 said:
I've always hand waxed and polished, because I don't trust myself with a machine, especially on this car.
Click to expand...



You seriously can't hurt it with a PC (dual-action/random orbital). Take a look at this video (~8.91 MB, be careful!) of me holding the machine, working full tilt at speed 6, on a solitary spot on the paint. NO DAMAGE was caused whatsoever; just going to prove how safe they really are.



http://www.hahn-on-the.net/TBECentral/pcdemo.wmv
 
marks70 said:
.



So there is no difference between "machine polishing" and "machine buffing"? The detailer's price sheet listed them separately, with the detail that included machine buffing costing almost twice as much.
Click to expand...



Different people use terms like "polishing" and "buffing" differently (and that example sounds pretty, uhm, "different" ;) ). I'd ask for an explanation. Make sure they know what you expect and that you know what *to* expect.



And, just to confirm, you are saying it is possible to get my car to near showroom condition, even when viewing it in the sun? I just don't want to have expectations that can't be meet.
Click to expand...



Really can't say without seeing it/trying to fix it. It just depends on how bad the marring is. Some stuff can't be safely removed; taking off that much paint would thin the clear too much. But most any car can be greatly improved.
 
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