Alternative for "detail clay"

H

Hugh2

New member
I'm new to this forum but scoured the archives before setting out to renew my somewhat weathered and scratched black Grand Cherokee. The end result was beyond my expectations so I give thanks to all who contribute to the archives.



I didn't wish to spend a lot of money on the process so ended up purchasing and using 3m perfect-it SMR (OK swirl remover but a superb cleaner) and S100 wax. Instead of purchasing a PC dual action I used my Makita 5021k variable speed random orbital sander/polisher with 6 inch velcro foam buffing pads which worked very well though maybe a little underpowered at lower speeds.



Now, the purpose of my post is what I used for clay. I couldn't bring myself to plunk $$ down for "detail clay", so I searched MSDS documents for a less costly alternative. I came to the conclusion that "detail clay" and "poster putty" is pretty much one and the same. So off I went and spent $4 for two packages (112 grams) of the stuff. After some carefull experimenting I confidently used this on the vehicle with a soapy lubricant and it worked beautifully.



Poster putty (reusable adhesive putty) can be purchased at any stationary type store under many brand names and prices are in the one to two dollar range for 56 grams.



Elmer's-Tack

Ross Tac'n Stick

Bostick Blu-tack

Saunders UHU tac



YMMV, but experiment for yourselves for this low cost alternative.
 
Hugh2:



Thanks for researching and bringing this idea to Autopia.



I too have wondered what was so special about detailing clay that it was not duplicated for use in some other area. Sounds like its time for a field trip to the hobby store to try a bit of this low cost alternative to see how it goes.



Thanks again.
 
eran said:
Really? That is very interesting. Good detective work.
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There's nothing special about this stuff from what I can tell and is a very common material used primarily for sealing. These putties are generally a mixture of polybutylene (for it's viscous nature) and "mineral fillers" to give it a semi solid form. The mineral fillers are predominantly lime or calcium carbonate. Other ingredients will very depending on what fillers are used but can be varied depending on how abrasive they want it. The trace elements noted in one MSDS document I viewed leads me to believe one of the fillers used is Flyash, an extremely fine by-product of coal burning powerplants. When I say fine you really have to touch the stuff to believe it, it's almost fluid.
 
I don't think I'd risk a repaint at $3-6K by trying to save $10 on a clay bar.



I'll stick with the real stuff, thank you.
 
This has been discussed before and the powers that be insist that automotive detailing clay is different than modeling or sealing clay. I've been doiing some chcking myself and so far I hhave found that there are differences. You can't always tell from an MSDS sheet, it won't tell you HOW something is made, just the safety details.



For fun I once tried some high end firm modeling clay on a test hood along with some automotive clay. The automotive clay was MUCH more agressive and worked a lot better. The modelling clay was very weak. I went back over the area I used the modeling clay on with the auto clay and it pulled more crud.



I'd stay stick with the real thing for now it's not really THAT expensive since it will last you a whole year!
 
There is such a thing as Liquid Clay. I've never needed to clay my car but it is handy to have just in case.
 
forrest said:
I don't think I'd risk a repaint at $3-6K by trying to save $10 on a clay bar.



I'll stick with the real stuff, thank you.
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Agree, if a risk exists the dollars saved doesn't offset the risk. In your opinion where are the potential risks of using the poster type putty, do these manufacturers generally use a more abrasive filler material or is the risk inherent with the production process and lack of controls which would prevent abrasive contaminants from entering the product?



The Elmer's product I used, if anything, was very mild and required many passes to clean buildup and as long as enough lube was used there was no streaking. The streaking I did get on a dry section easily buffed off with no apparent scratches.
 
Hugh, the biggest difference I see is quality control. You needn't be too concerned with QC when making a product that sticks a piece of paper to the wall or a refrigerator - if it sticks, the product works. That gives them much more latitude regarding quality of components, the blending of same, and the consistency of the finished piece. It's easy, in that instance, to change from one supplier to another to save a penny or less per unit. If there are minor difference in the component, so what.



However, your paint is a different surface, and the makeup of the clay is more critical. Changes in the components could cause marring of the paint or worse.



In addition, I know with a great deal of certainty that automotive detailing clay is different from the tacky clay you refer to, regardless of what you may believe from reading an MSDS sheet. If you believe it's the same, have at it and good luck. But, I'd suggest autopians not be penny wise and dollar foolish when it involves the paint on customer's, and their own, vehicles.
 
DFTowel said:
This has been discussed before and the powers that be insist that automotive detailing clay is different than modeling or sealing clay. I've been doiing some chcking myself and so far I hhave found that there are differences. You can't always tell from an MSDS sheet, it won't tell you HOW something is made, just the safety details.



For fun I once tried some high end firm modeling clay on a test hood along with some automotive clay. The automotive clay was MUCH more agressive and worked a lot better. The modelling clay was very weak. I went back over the area I used the modeling clay on with the auto clay and it pulled more crud.



I'd stay stick with the real thing for now it's not really THAT expensive since it will last you a whole year!
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Hi,



I did a search but can only find one reference to poster putty and it didn't contain much info. I'm sure there are differences but the big question is do these differences equate to a "better performing" clay or do these differences act as an avenue for the manufacturer to sell more assessory product, or a little of each. What I've looked so far indicates the variations of ingredients between different poster putty manufactures is very similar to the variations between different "detail clay" manufacturers. The difference noted on your test of clays would indicate a slighty coarser sieve gradation of filler used in the auto clay. I confess I haven't yet used an "auto clay" so can only attest to what I used and it worked well, maybe not as quickly as "auto clay", with no apparent problems. I'll try some Mothers clay (very positive remarks/reviews) on my wifes car soon maybe then the differences will become obvious.



On a side note about clay lasting a year, with my slippery fingers one clay bar won't last one car.
 
forrest said:
Hugh, the biggest difference I see is quality control. You needn't be too concerned with QC when making a product that sticks a piece of paper to the wall or a refrigerator - if it sticks, the product works. That gives them much more latitude regarding quality of components, the blending of same, and the consistency of the finished piece. It's easy, in that instance, to change from one supplier to another to save a penny or less per unit. If there are minor difference in the component, so what.



However, your paint is a different surface, and the makeup of the clay is more critical. Changes in the components could cause marring of the paint or worse.



In addition, I KNOW automotive detailing clay is different from the tacky clay you refer to, regardless of what you may believe from reading an MSDS sheet. If you believe it's the same, have at it and good luck. But, I'd suggest autopians not be penny wise and dollar foolish when it involves the paint on customer's, and their own, vehicles.
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Hi,



Thanks for the reply, I've been in manufacturing long enough to fully understand the QC/application/savings trade-off that arise and your are correct without tight controls in these areas you never know what might in the final product.



Regarding the MSDS documents and my beliefs. After reading the ingredients in MSDS the only thing I believe is the remarkable similarities between the two, but my familiarity with the purposes of MSDS also has me thinking there very well be more to the story. I guess the purpose of my query was to shed some light and facts on the actual differences between the two and remove the possible $$ costing variable which you refer as "luck". I see you represent a manufacturer so it would be natural for you not to divulge what the differences are nor would I expect you to. In this case proof is in tasting the pudding and I will try your product in the near future.



Thanks again.
 
might try er out when i'm done with the megs clay. thx for the headsup, and if not on paint, perhaps usable on windows and wheels? who knows
 
Did you take a picture after claying but before SMR? I'd love to see it.



I won't be trying this, but if others want to experiment, I'd love it if more research was carried out. I have noticed that my simple lil mind will keep paying $10 a pop for Clay Magic since I know it and can get it locally.
 
Anyone have any idea what the costs are to make that lil $10.00 cube of clay ? I can imagine a markup of at least 1000%.....I find this thread, and Hugh2 imagination and experimentation worthy of a thank you, at least from me. I have been wondering the same thing, matter of fact, my daughter purchased a "soft eraser", she referrs to it as a 'kneaded eraser"....very soft, elastic, conforming...I have to say, my imagination ran wild, and I told her i wanted to "borrow" some.....but she played with it like play dough, its been dropped, thrown, etc......

This detailer hates being taken, and competition, im sure isnt far away, its creative imaginations such as Hugh2, and others who "dare to compare" that bring you some of the products your currently using.......
 
a.k.a. Patrick said:
Anyone have any idea what the costs are to make that lil $10.00 cube of clay ? I can imagine a markup of at least 1000%.....I find this thread, and Hugh2 imagination and experimentation worthy of a thank you, at least from me. I have been wondering the same thing, matter of fact, my daughter purchased a "soft eraser", she referrs to it as a 'kneaded eraser"....very soft, elastic, conforming...I have to say, my imagination ran wild, and I told her i wanted to "borrow" some.....but she played with it like play dough, its been dropped, thrown, etc......

This detailer hates being taken, and competition, im sure isnt far away, its creative imaginations such as Hugh2, and others who "dare to compare" that bring you some of the products your currently using.......
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Thanks for the kind words.



I just purchased a $10 80 gram block of Mothers clay and it only cost me $24.99 cnd. Of course in my area you have to buy the kit and kaboodle to recieve some clay. Hopefully the next week or so I'll get around to using it.



I tried the poster tac on a few different surfaces and found it worked great on hard smooth interior plastic surfaces like bezels, consoles and such. Rubbing without the aid of a lubricant pulled up grime and left behind a very healthy looking non-greasy surface. At times it was necessary to buff off some residue but it was well worth it. This stuff will also easily take shape of small crevices, cracks, etc. and pull out dust.
 
4DSC said:
This is the thread where this has been covered before: http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14089&highlight=handy+tak





I'm not sure if I'd feel comfortable doing this to a car that didn't have a very beat up, moss-covered finish to begin with myself. You can get 2 or 3 uses out of Mothers Clay bar. It seemed to take me forever to use it up and I didn't really think it was so expensive after that.
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Thanks, after searching some more I did find this link plus others the other day. From the 5 threads I've found so far on the subject I note that opponents of poster putty genrally make two claims:1/ it doesn't work in an acceptable manner 2/ it can damage paint. Aside from these rather vague general statements I have seen nothing I would call factual data explaining how or why it doesn't work or how or why it can damage paint. Though enecdotal evidence can't be ignored what's been offered so far is somewhat contrary to my own experience. The above statments may very well be correct but without any attempt at supporting the claims these type of statements hold as much water to me as if someone had simply said it "sucks".



Forrest raised a reasonable quality control issue the other day which makes perfect sense, you definitely don't want oversized contaminants in the clay aside from what is picked up from the vehicle. There may have been some assumptions involved regarding the manufacturing process of putties though and it left me with a couple questions. 1/ Do the manufacturing tolerances of poster type putties allow sizes of material entering the products to exceed the accepted micron sizes as outlined in Auto Wax's patent. and if so by how much. 2/ Aside from particle size does the possible substitution of ingredients pose a potential hazard to paint. Concerning the last question I can't imagine the properties of any ingredient, aside from particle size, being used in poster putty that may damage paint that wouldn't also pose a hazard to the thousands of children who use this stuff.



Hopefully I'll be able to answer some of these questions in the next couple weeks, but there seems to be much secrecy in the putty manufacuring industry in general so I doubt I'll get very far.
 
While poster putty may have some QC issues, it is used on some well exposed surfaces in the home. If my wife's refrigerator surface were damaged by poster putty, the manufacturer had better watch out. I am probably going to try it on an old hood, etc before switching.
 
a.k.a. Patrick said:
Anyone have any idea what the costs are to make that lil $10.00 cube of clay ? I can imagine a markup of at least 1000%
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I would imagine more of a 2 to 4x markup at most.



Now, it may only cost a buck to make the clay, but most package it in a shiny box with some lubricant, etc.



I heard you can rub beans on your car and it will take out the contaminants. :D :xyxthumbs



(just kidding)
 
Postwood said:
I would imagine more of a 2 to 4x markup at most.



Now, it may only cost a buck to make the clay, but most package it in a shiny box with some lubricant, etc.



I heard you can rub beans on your car and it will take out the contaminants. :D :xyxthumbs



(just kidding)
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After a running through a few quick numbers appoximating material, manufacturing, and shipping (container from Japan + domestic trucking) I'd make a rather wild guess the it costs approx 50 cents/8 oz. bar to get it manufactured and shipped to a central USA location. Costs of final packaging, marketing, domestic shipping and the big kicker whatever licensing fees David Miller charges to recover his invested legal fees with a healthy profit probably make this a relatively low margin product for everyone but the patent holder.



If clay is now a relatively low margin product that may explain the trend toward value added type packaging strategies and including lube and wax, it's necessary to increase the perceived value of the clay purchase so that higher prices can be charged and more product sold at the same time in order to keep packaged goods margins at the targeted levels.



Of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.



Oh yeh, which beans you talking about, Clarkes? :)
 
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