Adaptive Abrasive Technology (AAT) Explained

ShaneB said:
SVR is raising a ton of questions here not just about the new AAT compound/polish but as to what the heck he's talking about. Please keep in mind I'm not trying to bash... It just seems kinda odd to me how you are talking about these products you use while withholding basically all information about them.

Such a secretive product that its "one of the leaders" while "most have never heard of it." Don't quite understand how that works.

How is a product that is so secretive yet "took millions to develop" being marketed and sold? From a business standpoint this is a losing battle. Let's make an amazing top of the line product that's revolutionary and very expensive to create, then not tell anyone about it... Many of us here run a business and could imagine spending a fortune to buy supplies and invest time, but not marketing AT ALL. Not gonna get very far. I could understand if you didn't say "haven't tested any new polishes for five years since switching to what I'm using now." That's an awful long time to spend millions on developing a product and its not publicly available after 5 years. And then on top of that you "pay just over cost" for this nameless product. Where's the return on investment? Spend millions developing while not making very much in return? Who is funding this? It just doesn't add up.

Again please don't think of me as bashing or calling you a liar. Just bringing up some of the questions I'm having in regards to this mystery product you can't seem to tell anyone what it is. Its just that the way you're talking about these products you're using makes me question weather or not they actually exist at all.
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I think it's safe to say that he's referring to Xpert Polishes, no surprise there. ;)
 
One of them has been on the market for ten years, plenty of people use it, it's being used all over Korea and in heaps of shops in China right now

The detailing market there is huge, south east asia in particular

Anyhow the company really don't seem to know how to market it or maybe they dont want to spend the money required to sell the amounts necessary.
Im not involved with them anymore than just buying their polishes and get a great price deal as there is my shop in Australia and five other shops owned by a friend in the USA owns that use it exclusively so together we get a better deal with one bulk order
The last two polishes have been out for five years and their my favourites as their a more advanced formula so like water rather than a thick cream

anyone can pm me for info about these.
I didnt mention them initially not because I want to not tell you all but this is 3D's place and I only mentioned that I use a different brand of fine polishes to get my point across about needing a better compound and what Im looking for in a polish line

I am trying to respect 3D and their part of the forum here on Autopia by not plastering photos and names of competing products all over it, that's a bit rude dont you think??

Everyone has to use what they like, we all like polishes for different reasons

looking forward to getting some answers from Tunch in due time.
I dont try a product and if I like it just use it because of that, I need to know that Im using a product who's formula is not like most brands out there which is to be honest very very old and not kind to paintwork at all or end users
 
SVR said:
I didnt mention them initially not because I want to not tell you all but this is 3D's place and I only mentioned that I use a different brand of fine polishes to get my point across about needing a better compound

Am trying to respect 3D and their part of the forum here on Autopia by not plastering photos and names of competing producst on their site, that's a bit rude dont you think?
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Thank you for clarifying. I hope I didn't offend you as that was not my intent. I totally understand your reasoning here.

Back on topic... Any word on when the new AAT products will be available for purchase?
 
SVR said:
...
I didnt mention them initially not because I want to not tell you all but this is 3D's place and I only mentioned that I use a different brand of fine polishes to get my point across about needing a better compound and what Im looking for in a polish line

I am trying to respect 3D and their part of the forum here on Autopia by not plastering photos and names of competing products all over it, that's a bit rude dont you think??

Everyone has to use what they like, we all like polishes for different reasons ...
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I could respect that.
 
SVR said:
I didnt mention them initially not because I want to not tell you all but this is 3D's place and I only mentioned that I use a different brand of fine polishes to get my point across about needing a better compound and what Im looking for in a polish line

I am trying to respect 3D and their part of the forum here on Autopia by not plastering photos and names of competing products all over it, that's a bit rude dont you think??
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3D hasn't owned this forum since November, and it was my understanding that even when 3D owned it, it was an open forum, as it was under the previous ownership, except when periodically DavidB would change his ideas about how the forum should be supported. The current owner (PBMG) has pledged to maintain this as an open forum, so I'm not sure really who you're trying to protect/respect.
 
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SVR said:
I can't say what brand unfortunately lets just say most have never heard of it. Their not in the business of being Meguiars

No it's not unbeatable totally as it does struggle a little on the heaviest of marks on hard paint due to the rolling abrasives but it's far safer and is a progressive cut not a rip and hack at the paint like most of it's competitors and it's far more advanced

It's definately one of the leaders for sure.

its USA made but from euro and Jap abrasives but their not off the shelf abrasives though and the formula is all new and is like water not a cream with no need for disodium EDTA (anti coaggulant used to hold solvent and water formula's together in personal care products and some polishes) or other solvents either

The difference is in the fact that it wasn't made for a price, it took millions to develop two of the polishes and their not interested in making products for cheap or to a set price like the masses are.
It costs heaps more to produce
and it never needs shaking, suspension of all ingredients is amazing.

Mothers tried to copy it a few years ago and failed
Their new Pro line is the closest thing to it but still suffers the same problems that plagues most - the same old formulation with better abrasive technology.
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This post is BS. I can't say what brand? BS. You can say any brand here. Millions to develop - with some but not interested in "setting prices" - WTF does that that mean?

Rolling abrasives??? Euro & "Jap" abrasives - BS.

EDTA - not even close.

"Rip and hack" - what is that?

Nonsense mystery products?

Mothers tried to copy it ????

BS.
 
Swanicyouth said:
This post is BS. I can't say what brand? BS. You can say any brand here. Millions to develop - with some but not interested in "setting prices" - WTF does that that mean?

Rolling abrasives??? Euro & "Jap" abrasives - BS.

EDTA - not even close.

"Rip and hack" - what is that?

Nonsense mystery products?

Mothers tried to copy it ????

BS.
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Sorry but your incorrect.
Of course Japan and Europe have abrasives, why would you think not. Kovax's sand paper abrasives are from Japan
Japanese polishes contain SMAT and DAT and there is a difference in size and shape of abrasives in polishes too.

everything i wrote their is from my own experience of 22 years and the chemist who made these is my mentor as he has 45 years of detailing and chemical real world knowledge and experience and he told me this

mothers pro line polishes are their attempt to copy it, you can ask my friend in melbourne who uses both brands. he know

anyhow Im just going to wait for my answers from Tunch and then buy some AAT. Have too many cars booked in to sit on here answering questions or responding to comments like yours.
 
SVR said:
Sorry but your incorrect.
Of course Japan and Europe have abrasives, why would you think not. Kovax's sand paper abrasives are from Japan
Japanese polishes contain SMAT and DAT and there is a difference in size and shape of abrasives in polishes too.

everything i wrote their is from my own experience of 22 years and the chemist who made these is my mentor as he has 45 years of detailing and chemical real world knowledge and experience and he told me this

mothers pro line polishes are their attempt to copy it, you can ask my friend in melbourne who uses both brands. he know

anyhow Im just going to wait for my answers from Tunch and then buy some AAT. Have too many cars booked in to sit on here answering questions or responding to comments like yours.
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I realize my response was harsh and abrasive. I'm sorry for that. I like that the tone of this forum is friendly - and I came off like an A-hole.

I came off badly, but I still think the post is crap. I don't believe in "special abrasives" from the UK, EU, Japan, Timbuktu, or the Moon. A lot of polishes contain SMAT and DAT. Rupes being the one that comes to mind. Special Italian abrasives? I like Optimum polishes as well - special American abrasives I guess.

I've used Mothers Professional line. Quite frankly, I don't see how they were unsuccessfully trying to copy anyone. They are just regular polishes.

I'm sure your guy is knowledgeable and does have 45 years experience. You don't think people from Menzerna, Sonax, Meguiars, and Optimum have many years of experience? I don't believe in magic potions or polishes anymore. Sorry.

All this being said, I don't buy into the new HD polishes either. Quite frankly - I'm sure they are good. But who is to say they are any better than the bunch of polishes I already have on my shelf???
 
SVR, I can understand you not wanting to start a topic about this product in 3D's sub-forum. That's just good manners. That said throwing claims out about some mystery product in the middle of one of 3D's threads that in essence leads readers to believe there are merits in this product's superiority and then not being willing to name it does little to boost credibility. If you wish to go down the road you started, do it right and start a thread with this product as a topic, if you don't want to talk about it then perhaps it's wise to not to mention it at all. Let's leave what's left of this thread to discuss the topic at hand and that's 3D's product.

My appologies to David for this thread getting side tracked.
 
GearHead_1 said:
SVR, I can understand you not wanting to start a topic about this product in 3D's sub-forum.

My appologies to David for this thread getting side tracked.
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I should apologize also, I didn't notice this thread was in the 3D-sponsored sub-forum, when I come here I hit "New Posts" and don't usually pay attention to what sub-forum a post is in, but I obviously should have in this case.
 
SVR said:
Hi David

you know how pedantic and fussy I am about the polishes I use
my main concern with them is that many use cheap solvents and other lubricants

I am really interested in trying these as I'm set with the two polishes I use but I do need a better compound than I'm currently using as it has abrasives I can feel and their sharp as which I dont like and it's only saving grace is that it is water based so it cannot put burn marks in the paint. however it still struggles with deep marks and sanding marks as its the old type abrasives that need heat to start working ie rotary 1500 rpm and I want to get away from that

I use compounds only for sanding marks or if someone has used a kitchen scourer to remove a bird dropping or tar which happened last week in fact
anyhow I have a few questions to ask

when will the msds sheet be available?
I need to see what type of lubricants/solvents are in there so I know that I'm not buying a product that's loaded with cheap solvents like many are

I dont use products containing stoddard solvent/naptha, kerosene or glycerin or the carcinogenic siloxane solvents from the skin care industry that 3M uses in one of theirs
the siloxane ones are a higher quality than stoddard which dries out too fast but I wont use something thats carcinogenic

2. does the AAT compound and the polish film nicely on the surface with a nice transparent film from start to finish so I can see the swirls and scratches being removed as I work the surface?

I ask this because one thing I hate is compounds and polishes that start cloudy and finish transparent (emulsion break), mine are clear from start to finish and the film of polish stays wet on the surface without being overly oily (no glycerin in the formula of those I use)


3. Is it a true water based formula in which when I spray water on the surface that has polish on it, the water washes the product down to nothing and wipes away totally so I can remove any dried polish from the paint or exterior trim instantly. ie will the polish not stick like concrete to the paint like old school solvent based compounds and polishes did

4. If I accidently run my pad over the exterior trim will it cause the trim to turn white?
What I currently use does not do this and actually polishes the trim regardless of material type even textured bumpers as its water based and rolling abrasive not sharply faced ones

5. Alot of compounds actually rip and tear at the paint when correcting it which then leads to marring from virtually any pad type and technique thus why they dont work on soft paints. What I use rolls over the paint and the abrasives are SMAT and DAT combined

6. This chemical booster sounds interesting, I've been told that kerosene in polishes can soften the paint which allows it to correct faster but Im not a fan of that idea. I have a chemical additive that I use with polish to do some proprietary things to the paint which are very beneficial.

the fact that you say the abrasives in these two products dont tear away at the paint is very good to hear as Ive tested 125 brands of detailing products over the last twenty two years and the two things I hate about conventional polishes/compounds are gougy teary abrasives and cheap solvents which reduces the gloss that can be achieved from them vs water based polishes which will leave a far better richer color and the fact that poor quality solvents in many actually dry out fast and then take the other lubricants away with them and then a foam pad increase the risk of leaving a burn mark in the paint especially from rotary use as the pad has no lubrication from the lubricants being taken away all of a sudden
not only that but some solvents can break down the binders in the paint over time with regular use, my cars paint is like glue now to polish because of using a certain range of polishes that are heavily solvent based (circa 2004) and very popular in USA

what I use is burn mark proof and the only one I know of.

I am sorry to ask so many technical questions but I do not buy a product unless I've read the MSDS sheet and investigated some technical things so I know that the ingredients that I hate with a passion are not in the formula. if they are I dont buy them.
In recent years I've been taught by two chemists in the automotive industry about what each ingredient in detailing products are and which ones are good and bad and what they are in the formula to do.

If there are certain solvents and other ingredients I dislike that are in a product, I will not purchase them

Im not here to steal formula's, I just need to know that I'm not polishing paint with a formula that contains ingredients which will cause filling or break the paint down over time like kerosene and others can or that contain certain solvents which will dry out too quick and risk paint burning

If these two products are not totally water based, will there come a time where the 3D or HD line contains any that will be
We do not need solvents anymore to wash away abraded colored paint anymore as we have clear coat paints and a proper polish formula does not need EDTA and certain solvents to hold it all together.

Oh and would 3D ever consider going away from aluminium oxide to a different oxide type for super hard paints or for certain conditions?

Thanks
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Matt - Here's the answers to some of your questions. Please let me know if you need further clearification.

MSDS sheets will be available once the products go on sale. Check out 3D Professional Detailing Products | Auto Detail | Supplies | Car Care for updates. Our abrasives were specifically selected for these products because our main target market is the paint & body industry. Because paint is typically fresh (a few days old), it poses several different obstacles that make our AAT system more desirable. People think fresh paint is easier to work on, but we at 3D disagree. Because of its age, these finishes gouge easier and are more difficult to finish clearly out on. These abrasives (along with the chemical additive) gently level defects from this soft, almost rubbery paint and do not gouge/dig into the surface. And is why the finish after compounding is not as hazy as most others compounds on the market.


1-there is no harsh solvents ....period and no siloxanes. And we don't use glycerin either. The solvent we use is a very high quality and safe. That makes it a little more expensive. However the percentage is very low. Therefore it is more of a "Water based" product.

2-It is a creamy smooth liquid so it's as transparent as it could be. Unless you use too much product, there shouldn't be any issues seeing through the slurry. It also wipes off very easy, has a very user friendly work time and will not wipe out trim.

3-Clean up, as mentioned above, is very easy. Stripping the surface making it 100% bare isn't an obstacle. Body shops, because they have a tendency of heavy product sling, can opt to do a rinse down with water to remove their debris. Detailers, who are more controlled in their buffing, can wipe down with IPA and expect a bare finish. Our biggest point is that it does not contain any fillers. Not even the super durable ones that some feel they need over cleaner to remove. Any oils , waxes and even glycerin can fool the polisher that the job is perfect. But once you wipe with alcohol everything comes back. And if you followed/attended the SEMA Buff-Off you would know this too as most of the attendee's product's filled.

4- Answered above.

5- Answered above.


6- No kerosene here... Mechanical polishing can take you so far . A booster increases the efficacy of the same abrasives. That is the whole premise behind AAT.
 
SVR said:
Cheers David, no rush but Im certainly very keen to test it

I haven't tested any new polishes for five years since switching to what Im using now which luckily I pay just over cost price for but I would like to try the new AAT's

Here is a comparison on my car of what I could achieve by rotary in the mid 2000's via rotary with Menzerna IP91L, PO106FF and PO85RD with the worlds best foams and then what I achieved with the polishes I use now (since 2010) which was performed in 2012 I believe and still looks close to that now

by the way I've changed the wheels since then
This is factory paint (PPG galaxy blue mica) on 1998 Ford Falcon Tickford XR6 Sedan (made 1800 of these)

View attachment 27203View attachment 27204View attachment 27205]
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Each photo looks great, but the lighting is totally different. :inspector:

If you haven't tried any new polishes in 5 years, I'm assuming that it probably means you haven't tried HD Polish? All I can say is that you're missing out BIG TIME. :gotcha:
 
GearHead_1 said:
SVR, I can understand you not wanting to start a topic about this product in 3D's sub-forum. That's just good manners. That said throwing claims out about some mystery product in the middle of one of 3D's threads that in essence leads readers to believe there are merits in this product's superiority and then not being willing to name it does little to boost credibility. If you wish to go down the road you started, do it right and start a thread with this product as a topic, if you don't want to talk about it then perhaps it's wise to not to mention it at all. Let's leave what's left of this thread to discuss the topic at hand and that's 3D's product.

My appologies to David for this thread getting side tracked.
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Setec Astronomy said:
I should apologize also, I didn't notice this thread was in the 3D-sponsored sub-forum, when I come here I hit "New Posts" and don't usually pay attention to what sub-forum a post is in, but I obviously should have in this case.
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No worries guys. I'm totally fine with your dialog. It really shouldn't matter which sub-forum it takes place in as I'm still certain that the premise behind Autopia is the sharing of unbiased information. I'm not one to pull punches and don't expect it in return as long as things stay professional. :cheers:
 
Swanicyouth said:
All this being said, I don't buy into the new HD polishes either. Quite frankly - I'm sure they are good. But who is to say they are any better than the bunch of polishes I already have on my shelf???
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You are the only one that can answer that question! I will see about sending you some samples (after they've been produced of course) if you're willing to put them to the test?
 
David Fermani said:
I will see about sending you some samples (after they've been produced of course) if you're willing to put them to the test?
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Um... I don't believe the hype of the new AAT compound and polish... yeah... Um, Ill never give up what I already use... yeah that's right...:notme:



When can I expect my sample? B)
 
johnboy said:
does not sound like it will get released any time soon?
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Actually, it will be released any time now. Due to a massive hiccup in shipping right currently, we are still waiting on a final component so we can begin filling up about 50,000 bottles of product.
 
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