A-Shilling we will go! See CMA's monthly newsletter...

tom p.

tom p.

Active member
....from Terry Freiberg. I'd post the comments here, but don't think I am supposed to. He mentions a whole new industry that's taking shape on the internet.



A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage others unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services or support the political group's ideological claims. Shills are often employed by confidence artists and governments.
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There are shills amongst us. I think many here are already aware ;)
 
We ban shills that we can positively identify. The problem is that a *good* shill (if there is such a thing) appears, for all intents and purposes, to just be an enthusiastic user. :(



Tort

(moderator, shill-killer when I can find them)
 
tom p. said:
....from Terry Freiberg. I'd post the comments here, but don't think I am supposed to. He mentions a whole new industry that's taking shape on the internet.







There are shills amongst us. I think many here are already aware ;)
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When we find them, we do our best to shill-lac them. :D
 
WilliamHBonney said:
I always notice the shills here. There are still a few around but the biggest one is gone bye bye in the yellow truck for now.
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Don't worry, we know who they are, but just like any type of law enforcement agency, we try not to make a move until we can lock em up for good! :clap:
 
i can understand the logic to using shills...but if the product is no good they will get few or no repeat customers...and then bad word of mouth on top of that, which should counter any sales made by the shills. (IMHO, of course)



i can't stick with one product long enough anyway...i just keep buying different ones! hahaha :)
 
paradigm said:
i can understand the logic to using shills...but if the product is no good they will get few or no repeat customers...and then bad word of mouth on top of that, which should counter any sales made by the shills. (IMHO, of course)
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But it's not that black & white...it's like office supply places at work...they all sell the same stuff, usually out of the same catalog, so how do they differentiate themselves? Well, by how short the saleswoman's skirt is, how much free crap they give you, whether you and the salesperson have something in common (or what they pretend to have in common with you).



So for example, let's take the new WOWA (wipe on, walk away) class of sealants. By my count, there are 3 players in that field, and they are likely pretty comparable...I'm sure none of them will be "no good". The one that gets the most buzz is the one that is going to get the most sales...if Mr. XYZ is a forum favorite, and he says WOWA product ABC is the bestest, mostest, one, which product is going to get the most sales?



That's the insidious part of the shill in this type of communication, it's not like the snake oil guys at the car show that are getting you to buy some crap that doesn't work, in this forum (the internet), just as stated in the email...it's a group psychology phenomenon to get you to pick one good product over another.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
if Mr. XYZ is a forum favorite, and he says WOWA product ABC is the bestest, mostest, one, which product is going to get the most sales?



That's the insidious part of the shill in this type of communication, it's not like the snake oil guys at the car show that are getting you to buy some crap that doesn't work, in this forum (the internet), just as stated in the email...it's a group psychology phenomenon to get you to pick one good product over another.
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I have to agree with what you're saying. Many of the forum shills are pretty smart about how they go about promoting the company and/or product. Justin was pretty smart about it in the beginning. He built a level of trust within the community and once he had his "user base", then came the next level of marketing. At the same time, he wasn't as smart as he thought he was because he couldn't fool most of us that have been here long enough to see the pattern in his posts. Ultimately, his stupidity and persistence of breaking the rules did him in. He could have kept on shilling for Autogeek and most likely would still be getting away with it since it's gotta be difficult proving someone is a shill, even in a case as blatant as Justin's. I despise the shills on here, but with Justin I really wanted to see him go. I was so tired of seeing him taking advantage of the forum with every one of his "reviews".
 
TortoiseAWD said:
We ban shills that we can positively identify. The problem is that a *good* shill (if there is such a thing) appears, for all intents and purposes, to just be an enthusiastic user. :(
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Is my sig a positive identification? Should I worry? Or I am considered enthusiastic? :D
 
I guess it's really more broad than I posted...what about Pepsi and Coke? Are they really that different? Is either of them "bad"? Product placement and sponsorship are other ways that big companies "shill"...if you really admire a certain driver or athlete, and every time you see them being interviewed, they are drinking a Coke, are you maybe going to think, maybe even a little subconsciously "hmm...this guy I think is really cool is drinking Coke, maybe I should drink it too...screw Pepsi!"



And then there's the whole group psychology thing about "I bought product XYZ, I want some validation that it's the best one" so they want tell everyone it's the greatest and to hear other people say it's the greatest, so they can pat themselves on the back for being the shrewdest wax-picker of the bunch. So it gets pretty hard to weed out the enthusiasm from the paid promotion, and even harder when it's not paid promotion, but playing on the egos of the "beta testers" who feel "honored" to have been selected, etc.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Product placement and sponsorship are other ways that big companies "shill"...if you really admire a certain driver or athlete ...
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That is different. Everyone knows they are paid to promote so it should be clear to everyone their motivation could be money driven. However, shiller is promoting without any disclosure, and often is promoting product that he/she wouldn't be so enthusiastic about if he/she did not have an interest in pumping it up.
 
ZoranC said:
That is different. Everyone knows they are paid to promote so it should be clear to everyone their motivation could be money driven. However, shiller is promoting without any disclosure, and often is promoting product that he/she wouldn't be so enthusiastic about if he/she did not have an interest in pumping it up.
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Is it different? How many people think those guys on the infomercials are there just because it's an "amazing discovery" rather than because they would whore any product for a buck? If "everyone knows they are paid to promote" then that kind of advertising (infomercial, sponsorship, product placement) wouldn't work at all...when clearly it does. The best advertising doesn't seem like advertising...just like the best actors don't seem to be acting.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Is it different?
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I feel it is. Promotion has honest disclosure and consumer that believes they do it cause it's best is a fool. Shilling has no disclosure, is dishonest, and we are being taken for a fool.
 
ZoranC said:
I feel it is. Promotion has honest disclosure and consumer that believes they do it cause it's best is a fool. Shilling has no disclosure, is dishonest, and we are being taken for a fool.
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I have to disagree with that. The next time you watch a movie or a show, pay close attention to the products used. They don't always come out and say "Hey, this movie was sponsored by XXX company". But like Setec said, sometimes the best advertising make it seem like it's not even advertising, just like how an actor acts but he doesn't seem to be acting.



A perfect example of this was the lastest season of "24".



In previous seasons of the show, they mainly drove Ford vehicles. This year, I'm pretty sure Toyota was a sponsor because the new Toyota Tundra truck was featured in the show, which was filmed months before the truck even went on sale. Is it a coincidence that the new Toyota Tundra was just hitting the dealerships at about the same time? Was it a coincidence also that right when 24 went into a commercial break, the first commercial was a Toyota Tundra commercial?



Product placement is everywhere, and most of the time we don't even see it or know about it.
 
BlackElantraGT said:
I have to disagree with that. The next time you watch a movie or a show, pay close attention to the products used. They don't always come out and say "Hey, this movie was sponsored by XXX company". But like Setec said, sometimes the best advertising make it seem like it's not even advertising, just like how an actor acts but he doesn't seem to be acting.



A perfect example of this was the lastest season of "24".



In previous seasons of the show, they mainly drove Ford vehicles. This year, I'm pretty sure Toyota was a sponsor because the new Toyota Tundra truck was featured in the show, which was filmed months before the truck even went on sale. Is it a coincidence that the new Toyota Tundra was just hitting the dealerships at about the same time? Was it a coincidence also that right when 24 went into a commercial break, the first commercial was a Toyota Tundra commercial?



Product placement is everywhere, and most of the time we don't even see it or know about it.
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My older sisters old job had her reading scripts for movies about to be filmed and finding spots where they could do product placement. So yeah, it's everywhere and a lot of the time very sneaky.
 
BlackElantraGT said:
I have to disagree with that. The next time you watch a movie or a show, pay close attention to the products used.
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IMHO there is a huge difference between just placing a product without making any comments about it and actively putting a product in your face and claiming "this is a best thing you can find out there blah blah blah". First one is not pushing you nor pulling you in any direction, second one is actively convincing you.
 
ZoranC said:
I feel it is. Promotion has honest disclosure and consumer that believes they do it cause it's best is a fool. Shilling has no disclosure, is dishonest, and we are being taken for a fool.
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IMHO there is a huge difference between just placing a product without making any comments about it and actively putting a product in your face and claiming "this is a best thing you can find out there blah blah blah". First one is not pushing you nor pulling you in any direction, second one is actively convincing you.
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I think you're contradicting yourself. What is it that you'd rather have? Lets use Wheaties as an example. YouTube - Wheaties Ad: Michael Jordan



So based on your first answer, since we know that Michael Jordan was paid to endorse Wheaties, you don't mind that because we know he was paid to do it and if a consumer buys it because of Michael Jordan, then they're a fool for doing so.



But in the commercial, they say how Wheaties is better than all these other cereals when it comes to being made with whole grains and Michael ends it by saying "You better eat your Wheaties", which for the most part is aimed at children. Obviously Wheaties and Michael Jordan is trying to sell you a product.



Now in your eyes, which is more deceptive? Having a paid celebrity endorser trump up a product? Or watching a product advertisement without you even knowing about it?
 
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