$4.50 a gallon in Brooklyn!!

Joshua312 said:
...there are going to be unexpected costs we just have to deal with for the time being



I recall hearing a certain political official telling the people that the gas price increase is merely temporary. When was this...August?



Big companies love to play with the minds of the public. Many people are way too trusting of the government to protect us from being taken advantage of. Gas prices have been rising slowly and consistently for months. People don't seem to notice until it hits that magical $3.00/gal (which it did here this week).



I was at the gas station yesterday, and I recall scanning around at the nearby pumps, seeing $55, $57, $62, etc... People around here love to drive gigantic beasts of vehicles, and most of the time you see women by themselves in those huge SUVs, and they don't have a trailer hitch. IMO it's one thing if you have a big camper or boat to tow with the truck/SUV, but to just drive one because you like to be intimidating in someone's mirrors (like my brother :rolleyes: ) is stupid.



BTW my brother got rid of his 5.8L Bronco for a 1.3L Ford Aspire 5spd, which has already paid for itself several times over.
 
I'll chime in here, though I may ruffle a few feathers. There really isn't a huge conspiracy here. Sure, we may be paying a little more than we should, but the fact is, while there is a lot of oil in supply right now, there is not a ton of gasoline. Add to that the fact that MTBE is being phased out for a new formula with ethanol, and fact is, the industry is struggling to get gas moving out of the refineries at a good clip. We also have to remember that a lot of refineries are down for yearly work at this time, only making things worse. Overall, there are so many variables right now. Sure, we get beat up a bit by big oil, but not to the extent some think. We need to find some alternative fuel sources, build more refineries, and drive more fuel efficient vehicles.
 
NT2SHBBY said:
secondly, for the people who believe 93 is better than 87, and gives better gas mileage need to proceed to remove their heads out of their asses.......93 octane purely has more oxygen in it than 87.....which means it burns FASTER which actually reduces gas mileage...



oh and for those who don't know....89 is BS!!!! gas trucks come filled with two grades, 87 & 93 (91 in Cali).....after the dude finishes filling 87 and 93 tanks, whatever is left over between both grades gets combined into 89 tank.......which usually amounts to a **** load of 87 and a lil of 93 in there



most guys will tell you to run 87, and once a month run a tank of 93 in there OR a bottle of fuel injection cleaner/HP booster....



I can find links if you want to back my line of thought....I've done a shitload of research on this



93 resists detonation better than 87, in a high compression engine/forced induction setup that is important. My timing gets pulled if I run 87, and even 89, and it is especially obvious when the car downshifts (like to pass someone on the highway).



89 has to be 89 coming out of the pump, if it isn't, that is illegal, and you should be going straight to the media with that, you'll probably make a lot of money. I thought it was quite well known that it was just a mix of 87 and 93 done right there at the station. I'd love to see these links to prove that there is a "**** load of 87 and a lil of 93 in there"



I've ran a month of 87, I've ran a month of 89, and I've ran a month of 93, and my mileage is better with 93, and it comes out to be cheaper per mile to run 93 also, so if my car runs better on 93, is more effeciant on 93, I'm gonna stick with it. It is true though that for most cars, 87 is all they need, and they will not get any benefit from a higher octane.



GTP - you are still runing unleaded gas, just a higher octane, that's what I was trying to get across
 
OneQuickGT1 said:
Sure, we get beat up a bit by big oil, but not to the extent some think. We need to find some alternative fuel sources, build more refineries, and drive more fuel efficient vehicles.



Agreed! We need to produce more ethanol 85 capable vehicles and start building more stations...It doesnt do any good when these stations are only in 2 counties of the whole state
 
UnsanePyro said:
89 has to be 89 coming out of the pump, if it isn't, that is illegal, and you should be going straight to the media with that, you'll probably make a lot of money. I thought it was quite well known that it was just a mix of 87 and 93 done right there at the station. I'd love to see these links to prove that there is a "**** load of 87 and a lil of 93 in there"



BS!!!! I've been told this direct from a couple of gas station owners.....and actually 89 does not have to be 89 coming out of tanks.........if you take the average between 87 and 93, with the proper proportions of 87 & 93 put in, you'd get 89 octane...





my reference to website links was to prove that 93 does no more for an engine does 87, EXCEPT for high performance engines-which to this day is still debateable
 
I watched the interview with the owner of the station in Brooklyn on my local news here in Jersey. He set the gas price high because he has small tanks which need to be re-filled more often so he said it costs more to have it routinely shipped to him. That was his reasoning.



The cost of gasoline is so high because of the high price of oil which is set by traders in worldwide financial markets. Screaming knuckleheads on trading floors in London, NY, etc... set the oil price, not old evil men plotting in smoke filled board rooms of Texas based corporations. Lets not forget about OPEC's cut, unrest in many oil producing countries (Iran, Sudan, Chad, etc...) and the absolute insane thirst by China and India and the United States.



Build more refineries!! Or drive the Mercedes detailed by Sean that runs on General Tso's chicken and funnel cake oil residue!!
 
Joshua312 said:
Agreed! We need to produce more ethanol 85 capable vehicles and start building more stations...It doesnt do any good when these stations are only in 2 counties of the whole state



IT doesn't help that people can't buy those yet either. If you want a hybrid or some sort of alternative fuel vehicle, you have to have a bunch of extra money laying around. I know for sure that there is no way I could get into one, maybe in 5 years, but definately not now.



Consumption has to go down, people are all too willing to keep swiping their credit card at the pump for $50,60,70+ without thinking twice. Like someone else said, how many people do you see driving around SUVs without a trailer hitch? And even of those trailer hitches, I bet some of them are only for stuff that a car/minivan could handle.
 
NT2SHBBY said:
BS!!!! I've been told this direct from a couple of gas station owners.....and actually 89 does not have to be 89 coming out of tanks.........if you take the average between 87 and 93, with the proper proportions of 87 & 93 put in, you'd get 89 octane...





my reference to website links was to prove that 93 does no more for an engine does 87, EXCEPT for high performance engines-which to this day is still debateable



What are you calling BS on? I never said they had to have a tank of 89, I just said that they had to have 89 coming out of the pump if it is labled 89, and that 87 and 93 are typically mixed to get 89 at the pump.
 
UnsanePyro said:
IT doesn't help that people can't buy those yet either. If you want a hybrid or some sort of alternative fuel vehicle



Buy those vehicles? They have been on the road for years...Some of you check your Ford gas door or the rear of the vehicle...even older vehicles say unleaded or ethanol 85



One example taken from a website:

Who is currently making E-85 models?



In 1996 Ford Motor Company will manufacture 6,000 E-85 Tauruses. They produced their first E-85 car in 1994 for test and demonstration purposes in the state of Illinois and federal government fleets. In late 1996, General Motors will begin making an estimated 100,000 model year 1997 S-10 and Sonoma light-duty trucks designed to run on E-85. Currently, the state of Illinois has more than 350 E-85 Tauruses and Chevrolet Luminas in operation.
 
Joshua312 said:
Buy those vehicles? They have been on the road for years...Some of you check your Ford gas door or the rear of the vehicle...even older vehicles say unleaded or ethanol 85



One example taken from a website:

Who is currently making E-85 models?



In 1996 Ford Motor Company will manufacture 6,000 E-85 Tauruses. They produced their first E-85 car in 1994 for test and demonstration purposes in the state of Illinois and federal government fleets. In late 1996, General Motors will begin making an estimated 100,000 model year 1997 S-10 and Sonoma light-duty trucks designed to run on E-85. Currently, the state of Illinois has more than 350 E-85 Tauruses and Chevrolet Luminas in operation.



Didn't realize that, I have seen E85 commercials, but I have never heard any hype about cars that run on them like you hear witht he hybrid hype
 
E85 is good...but not the best as some might place a hybrid in that category. E85 is usually anywhere from .20 to .40 cents cheaper than regular unleaded...but at this cost you lose about 2-3 miles per gallon where as a hybrid if I understand it correctly you gain mpg and you will be paying less for fuel (especially if your getting to go farther on your $20) It's a crazy world out there :sosad My mom seen a drive-off just last week, those are the jerks that really erk me
 
Alternative Fuels vs. The Space Program



President Kennedy gave a speech in May of 1961 that our goal as a nation was to put a man on the Moon within ten years. Apollo 11 landed on the Moon in July of 1969, 8 years after Kennedy’s speech. We have known for years that gas prices with continue to go up and the majority of our oil suppliers hate us as a country. With all of our current technology I would think we could be a lot further along of where we are today in the development of alternative fuels if our government was really serious about it.





Lee Raymond the recently retired CEO of Exxon has come under fire for a $150 million dollar retirement package, here is his response to a question about the record quarterly earnings that Exxon has been having in the last year.



"People don't understand the time frame that we operate in. We operate in terms of 10-, 20-, 30-, 40-year cycles and to put that in context, that's 20 (U.S.) Congresses. A single quarter or a single year, which may mean everything from a political circus point of view, is not really all that significant in the time frame that we operate in," Raymond said. (http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/19/news/newsmakers/exxon_raymond.reut/index.htm).



He discounts short term record earnings due to higher gas prices by saying they (Exxon) as a company planning on the future, does he really expect an educated consumer to buy this logic?



He also goes on to say “Yet, despite his view that gasoline is not about to be supplanted as the main motor fuel in this country - and that it was the job of the oil industry to tackle new investments over the long term without reference to the short-term price environment - he predicted that no new oil refineries would be built in the United States because, even for a company as big as Exxon Mobil, "the risk of the investment would be extraordinarily high."�



No new oil refineries would be built in the United States because it puts the company at and “extraordinarily high� risk; I have a hard time believing this. One of the reasons I hear on the news all the time about gas prices being so high is because the lack of refinery capacity, so under this logic they (oil company’s) can keep prices up because they have no plans in increasing their ability to produce larger quantities of gas.



But then given the current administration and their ties to big oil and the Middle East who is surprised we are getting raped at the gas pumps.
 
Hope this might help in the "Octane" argument..



From the Federal Trade Commission Web Site…



What are octane ratings?

Octane ratings measure a gasoline's ability to resist engine knock, a rattling or pinging sound that results from premature ignition of the compressed fuel-air mixture in one or more cylinders. Most gas stations offer three octane grades: regular (usually 87 octane), mid-grade (usually 89 octane) and premium (usually 92 or 93). The ratings must be posted on bright yellow stickers on each gasoline pump.

What's the right octane level for your car?



Check your owner's manual to determine the right octane level for your car. Regular octane is recommended for most cars. However, some cars with high compression engines, like sports cars and certain luxury cars, need mid-grade or premium gasoline to prevent knock.

How can you tell if you're using the right octane level? Listen to your car's engine. If it doesn't knock when you use the recommended octane, you're using the right grade of gasoline.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/octane.htm



Here is another link about “How Gas Prices Work�



http://money.howstuffworks.com/gas-price.htm
 
NT2SHBBY said:
my reference to website links was to prove that 93 does no more for an engine does 87, EXCEPT for high performance engines-which to this day is still debateable
No, it's not debatable; it's science. High compression and forced induction (which can be though of as "artificial compression") motors require higher octane fuels to resist detonation/pre-ignition. Modern cars use signal processing in conjunction with a knock sensor (a filtered "microphone" attached ot the block) to determine if detonation is occurring. If so, timing (and/or boost, for FI cars) is reduced to protect the motor, which at the same time reduces power. If you want the best performance from a car that has been designed for premium fuel, use premium fuel, or suffer the performance hit.



You're right in that running a high octane fuel in a car that doesn't require it is a waste, often causing reduced mileage. However, it's not because the higher octane fuel has "more oxygen" . . . higher octane fuels simply contain fewer BTUs per gram, and are more difficult to ignite. Less energy per gram == lower mpg. Possible incomplete ignition == lower mpg. Also, most "economy" cars simply lack the programming in the ECU to advance timing far enough to take advantage of the higher octane fuel.



Personally, I think I'm going to start looking at water injection for my WRX. Up to 20% of fuel can be replaced by atomized water, at the same time increasing the effective octane of your fuel by very large amounts. Yeah, I know, it sounds counter-intuitive if you've never heard of it before, but the tech is very old (used in WWII for fighter planes), and there are a number of well-designed kits out there for adding it to your car (see "Aquamist" for an example). I know of a turbo car tuned here locally that, on the dyno, made almost as much power with 92 octane pump gas and water injection as with C116 race gas (within 5%, IIRC, on a 500+ hp motor).



Tort
 
When I see a company that can afford to offer it's outgoing CEO a 150 million dollar retirement, I see a company who obviously doesn't need my money to survive. As much as I like Mobil-1 oil and their filters, I refuse to buy their products including gas. I'll make every attempt to never use a gas station that uses their gas.

I'm happy now I got my Civic and love the gas mileage, but still. I'm not loaded by any means and gas will have to go up alot more to put me in a pinch, but I've changed my driving habits and usually travel only as needed now that gas has gone up even more.

Why is it only VW and Mercedes offer diesel cars? Why can't more companies offer diesel? Why can't we use corn or soy to create bio-diesel? If there's such a big push for E-85 from corn, why not step it up to bio-diesel? E-85 is fine, but if it gives you less gas mileage, why not start designing turbo diesels that can use the corn more efficiently? You'd think I own a diesel with my rants, but I won't buy a VW from my local dealer and I wouldn't let them touch my cars.

I think this country could find better alternate fuel sources, and it probably will, but not until the last minute when we start to get in serious trouble.

Just thought I'd rant for a minute. Hope you guys deal with it better than my wife.



ps: just realized our diesel is too dirty for most cars
 
eyeguy1 said:
I think this country could find better alternate fuel sources, and it probably will, but not until the last minute when we start to get in serious trouble.



Procrastination...it's the American way.
 
First thing I'm buying after I finish my undergraduate degree and get hired somewhere *crosses fingers*



Yamaha V-Star 650 or 750 Honda Shadow Ace.

50+ mpg, all I need during the nice weather to put around.
 
I remember hearing at one point the amount gas actually costs is so minimal compared to what we pay for it, its just that the government allows for the prices to be how they are because of the demand we as Americans have for gas....



Well, not actually. I am NOT an apologist for the Petroleum Co's, by any means, but the situation is a heckuva lot more complicated than the price of milk, or cotton, or Zaino...



Gasoline, at least in it's current state and form, is one of those few commodities for which there is not a ready replacement providing the same utility. It is also one of those commodities that is an end product of a resource whose presence around the planet is arbitrary and, where it is found, is extremely difficult to extract. Oil wells tend to be a heck of a lot deeper than coal mines. Sweet crude doesn't just come "a-bubblin' up from the ground" anymore, Jed Clampett notwithstanding.



Compared to many other liquids, gasoline is extremely expensive to locate, extract, transport, refine, and deliver. Compare it to milk. Or, jezzus benightly, your local bottle of Evian. Both are relatively simple to get, easy to find, require far less post-extraction processing, and just as expensive.



The price of this commodity is very tightly coupled to both supply AND demand. Demand, worldwide, has nearly doubled in the last ten years. Supply lines in several top producers (Read: Venezuala, Nigeria, Iraq) have recently been sharply cut back for both political and non-political reasons. This will lead to a rise in price. Inevitable.



It's also true that in the US, environmental concerns have acted to reduce the exploration and extraction of petrochemicals from our own shores - for good or for bad, it's a fact of life. We buy gas from overseas because we can not produce enough within our own borders to supply our demand. And we tend not to want to have oil refineries in our back yard (even though I have about 5 of 'em within 10 miles, plus a nuke plant down the road... lucky me.)



In the overall economic picture, using real dollars, gasoline has not jumped that much in the last quarter century. It has kept pace with inflation (or, if you prefer, inflation has kept pace with it). Regardless, we as a Nation of Drivers need to either sharply curtail our use of gasoline, or get used to paying higher prices for it.



Government action can only make it worse. I remember the gas lines of the 70s. If the government puts some sort of price ceiling on gas, it simply won't be sold. The stations will not get it from the refineries, because the refineries won't make it. An artificially low price would encourage even more consumption, as it is.



It helps to keep things in focus. A gallon of gas at $3.00 is about the same as three hershey bars, 1/4th of a CD, 8 first class stamps, or two loaves of bread.



The reason people get so hung up on gas is that it's one of the few things we tend to buy by itself - unless you're in the Stop-n-Shop getting a Slushy or something, the bottom line number for that tank of gas is usually the only thing on the receipt. When we buy groceries or clothes or other stuff, there's usually more than one item on the bill.



We also buy it in bigger chunks. If you bought milk 25 gallons at a time, I bet we'd also be crying about those rapacious dairy farmers in Wisconsin.



Think about it.
 
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