3m trouble

L

loodi

New member
as i advanced into car detailing world, or at least i think i am advancing (my finishing results are getting close to perfection), i noticed its pretty damn hard to reach the REAL perfection im seeking for.

and as this perfection isnt showing up, i decided to give another brand a shot.

now, im not saying anything bad about 3m polish pastes here, im just not finding the satisfaction i need when i use them.



heres what happened:

yesterday i detailed a peugeot 206 rc with amazing paint/clearcoat condition. it was repainted 5 months ago with 3 coats of a very expensive nano clearcoat. (he forgot the brand name) there were just some light swirls that had to be removed. a lot of them actually.

so i started with the black cap on black pad, blue on blue pad, used final glaze (red cap) by hand and threw over 2 coats of meguiars gold class paste wax with 12hrs in between coats. topped today with 1 cover of ultimate quick detailing spray and the result IS amazing, BUT...



there are still minor swirls that can be noticed under the sun gun.

(pic was taken today before the 2nd coat of megs gold class after he drove 15miles with it during rain)

the paint reflection is quite amazing, the gloss that meguiars gold class and UQD gave left the owner speechless and he didnt even noticed the remaining swirls till i pointed them for him to see. (he doesnt give a crap about them, he gave me the money + a huge tip (30% more on the price)).



i find the fact that i spent 2hrs for each 3m coat kinda disturbing. 6hrs of polishing and still not the result i was looking forward to see on the end.

yes, the clear was the hardest i ever met, but still, i expected a lot more from a brand like 3m.

never had any problem like this before, this is the first one, but still, to be honest, its the first kind of detailing where i was aiming to create something that can easily be a garage queen.



im not even questioning my technique (wich improved greatly over the last year), the polishing itself was perfect... no build ups of polishing paste, no overheating, the buffing was extremely easy and well, everything was perfect.

took me 20mins for half a door with the rotary makita only for the glaze. so i really dont believe i needed to polish it for longer in order to eliminate the swirls.

thats why i think 3m simply cannot compete with such a clearcoat.



also, when i see that some of you guys here can achieve easily the perfection im looking for with only 2 meguiars products in half of the time i spend, i think im starting to loose it.



so, final question:

what should i fill my cabinets with?

meguiars 105 and 205 to replace 6 bottles of 3m on the shelf (white, green, black, yellow, blue, red)

or

HD uno and keep only the fast cut compound from 3m for really tough clearcoat damages?



the problem is, id rather take the HD uno of course (you all never told anything bad about it), but i have to order it from the US, wich greatly increases its cost cause of the shipment and stuff.... while i can get meguiars 105 and 205 at the local store 2 miles away from my garage.



is HD uno worth it so much that i should ship it here from the US and pay 3 times it cost?

or should i take more into consideration the megs 2 step?

or maybe for some strange masochist reason its better to stay on 3m and feel destroyed after every single detail job? will do the last one only if you convince me its my fault that 3m isnt giving the perfect results i need/want, wich im not saying its impossible, but im just 99% sure its NOT my fault.





also, nobody here uses any HD product, so theres is no way i could make an order over an importer or something like that. i had to do it privately, so the final price including the shipment and taxes would be around 55$ for a 9oz bottle and it would take 2 weeks to ship it here in croatia (mid europe). not to mention i need a lot of it, plus the pads.....



please help me cause im questioning my detailing job here only for the problems 3m is giving me. tomorrow morning i have a black golf mkVI to detail on the exterior with heavy damage and im really not happy about having to use 6 different polishing pastes again... estimated 10hrs only for polishing.

............rant...........



:tsk:
 
If the clear is scratch resistant, you're gonna need a SMAT polish/compound. It can be either Meguiar's, Optimum, etc. Soft diminishing polishes won't touch those imperfections. Those are annoying because on a SRC they are usually very thin, but deep and hard to remove.



As I am in Europe too, it is too common to use the cap color to tell which 3M product was used - BUT! - product codes, packaging (hence cap colors) are different in other countries, so please refer to the products with their actual names or acronyms. This will ensure that more board members can help you.



3M FCP is a reasonably good product, but of course, as technology advances, there are more effective ways to solve issues. 3M is always a good choice when you need a rocks-in-a-bottle type heavy compound for very aggressive leveling/compounding after sanding down orange peel. Ultrafina is a great finishing polish too, but in the light/mid compound category there are better ones, which can produce easier and more honest results.
 
product codes, packaging (hence cap colors) are different in other countries
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had no idea about this... sorry all.



Ultrafina is a great finishing polish too, but in the light/mid compound category there are better ones, which can produce easier and more honest results.
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so im not the only one who thinks that.

the fast cut compound (white) and the fast cut + (green) trully are great products wether used on wool pads or on their respective color coded foam pad. never had problems with them. always made their job when had to, though they can leave some holograms and swirls after a heavier use (multiple passes). but it seems there is some lack of quality in the mid section indeed.



thats why i thought a combination of fast cut (white) would be perfect when followed by something like the HD uno, the gtechniq P1 or similiar all in one products.



or fc+ (green) in combination of the megs 205.



the question now is if HD uno is really worth that much money and waiting time for me or should i just satisfy my needs with a 205?

also can UNO be confronted with the megs combination of 105/205? or with the P1? or the zaino Z-AIO?



of course, im not expecting miracles from any of those, but i just need something better cause i cant rely anymore on 3m products when it comes to polishing after a heavier compound done after the troubles i had yesterday with that unfinished job.
 
That's great that you've improved leaps and bounds over the past few months in detailing. Kind of curious how you spent two hours on each step only to find that the next day there are still light scratches?



Didn't you check after each pass/step that you achieved the finish you wanted?



As for your questions, HD UNO is an amazing product and really is a good cut/polish product. Your shipping situation really is a pity though! You also don't have to use their pads with UNO, but I also find their pads top notch, look up my review of their products.



I'd start with the most cost effective method first, i'd try m105/m205 and see if it gets you the results you'd like. Don't "fill your cabinets" with any product before you try them out first :P These two products are tested and proven, although you could probably just purchase m105, considering you didn't receive the desired cut you wanted and you could just use one of your polishes in the place of m205.
 
I haven't had regular swirls that weren't removable with 3M yet. Did you work step one enough? I know you are confident with your technique, maybe you just needed more time on it?
 
i noticed the swirls only the next day cause i really need to invest more in lights in the garage. and my fault is i didnt checked every single square inch with the sun gun. entirely my mistake. at yes, i learned something from it.



as for my technique, i really am confident, but not enough that i can say its not goodr. as for this case, i mentioned the technique cause im sure thats not the fault for 3m not being able to remove swirls. cause probably the mid section of 3m products (the ultrafina) needed more time to work it in, but cmon... 20mins per panel for light swirls? i really dont want to spend more. i cant afford to ask more money than that only to remove some light swirls. if i have to correct light swirls, im not going to compound that with the 3m trizact! i want a product that can polish them out! the ultrafina SE should have done that with the first pass, no matter the hardness of the clearcoat! (purely my opinion. a lot may disagree on this, but its the way i see this business)



thats why im looking info about HD uno that much (for example) and advices on what should i do.

by the fact that for example Miracle detail (Paul Dalton) uses 3m products, its obvious that something went wrong in my garage the other day... but i dont want to sit and think about it. im just dissapointed with the results 3m gave me with my technique, so im willing to move on to another brand.



brad, 2 hrs of fast cut plus should have done it. if a compound mixture isnt able to do it, then i dont weant to use it anymore.



(as i read thru the whole post i just wrote, it may look like im just a troll that has done something wrong and now is complaining about the first thing he can blame... i assure you im... well, normal. and very calm, despite how all this can sound over the keyboard. so im not ranting at you guys now, i really appreciate your help)



so, astro votes for HD uno in my case. :) everyone else agrees? :pray:
 
loodi said:
thats why im looking info about HD uno that much (for example) and advices on what should i do.

by the fact that for example Miracle detail (Paul Dalton) uses 3m products, its obvious that something went wrong in my garage the other day... but i dont want to sit and think about it. im just dissapointed with the results 3m gave me with my technique, so im willing to move on to another brand.



brad, 2 hrs of fast cut plus should have done it. if a compound mixture isnt able to do it, then i dont weant to use it anymore.



(as i read thru the whole post i just wrote, it may look like im just a troll that has done something wrong and now is complaining about the first thing he can blame... i assure you im... well, normal. and very calm, despite how all this can sound over the keyboard. so im not ranting at you guys now, i really appreciate your help)



so, astro votes for HD uno in my case. :) everyone else agrees? :pray:
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Loodi when looking at other mainstream detailer's product lines, its important to realize that because they may endorse a given line, does not mean that everything goes butter smooth. The best of the best often run into headaches and end up spending 2 times the amount of budgeting time just so the finish is where they want it.



Just because Paul Dalton uses 3m, doesn't mean in the 6 hours you were polishing the car that something went wrong(because thats pretty fast for multiple steps) it just means the marks are that deep.



Also, when dealing with paint as hard as what you had there(which looks amazing BTW) you really should count on spending a little bit more time with it as the deeper swirls which may be harder to see at the time will require more refinishing work. Two hours in most people's cases would only get them 1/3 of the way around a car, even with a rotary so try not to focus on specifically time. Just focus on the area you are working in and be a bit more flexible than



If you are using a rotary it might be time to step up to a lighter wool pad for your compounding steps, in the event you run into this again. If you are using DA, I do agree a SMAT product is a better choice, and will save you some time. UNO or M105 should be acceptable just bearing in mind it may not be a "1 pass" wonder.
 
i dont have anything smart to answer on your post cause i agree on everything you said.

just a little thing:

i know 1 pass of an AIO product will probably not do the job as its written on the package, but i still think it will greatly reduce the time needed to do the job. 3m may be a great product, but it just isnt for me. i think i would do better with an AIO, even if im gonna have to use multiple passes on 4-5 pads. wether it is my technique that doesnt fit to 3m products or anything else, im not able to remove some light defects with it on such hard coats. thats why im opting for a new brand.
 
loodi said:
i dont have anything smart to answer on your post cause i agree on everything you said.

just a little thing:

i know 1 pass of an AIO product will probably not do the job as its written on the package, but i still think it will greatly reduce the time needed to do the job. 3m may be a great product, but it just isnt for me. i think i would do better with an AIO, even if im gonna have to use multiple passes on 4-5 pads. wether it is my technique that doesnt fit to 3m products or anything else, im not able to remove some light defects with it on such hard coats. thats why im opting for a new brand.
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Since you can purchase the M105/205 combo locally, I would purchase that. Those two work great on harder paints and also perform well time and time again on a variety of paint systems I've used them on. Also, I'd recommend you do a test spot the next time you embark on a full detail. I know it's another step, but it's one that can save you headaches like the one you went through in the future. Good luck.
 
loodi, 20 minutes on a panel is not that long. Sometimes the defect are evil; very thin but seriously deep - making the false impression that the damage is only light. So when you go over a panel square centimeter by square centimeter, time can tick away pretty quickly. And you're gonna wonder when and where you spent 6 hours on a single hood and it's still not perfect...



You mentioned the Trizact compound - well - it's a thrash-worthy bottle. The most disgusting single product in my experience. It's filler heavy, and these fillers are very stable unfortunately, so it won't show the true state of the paint after polishing, even after a quick/light wipedown. Of course, it can produce nice result if worked properly, but the European volume detailing culture (aka 3M fanbase) is not interested in proper techniques...



So invest in some SMAT stuff AND try Uno (because the impulse is so powerful in you), and buy the best & newest pads. Spot pads, Meg's MFs, Surbufs and you're ready to perform.
 
seems that everybody here agrees somehow on the SMAT products, not being too happy for me about wanting to purchase the uno.

ill give the 105/205 combination a shot then before trying any AIO product.



as for the 20mins for a panel....

you guys left me speechless. however noobish it may sound, i relly thought thats pretty much time. not A LOT, but pretty much long...

of course im not expecting miracles after 20min of polishing, but i thought thats above every limit for a great finish. (not flawless and spotless like on the pics the pro detailers post here, im not even considering that cause its totally out of my league by a few hundred steps)

i would be happy with a small scratchs here and there, i dont have customers that are looking for something perfect like already mentioned.



oh well....

i accept the criticism: its my fault. wrong perspective, i assume. but im still gonna try the megs 105/205 with a set of brand new pads. (already have a few new meg's MFs, and i love them)



THANK YOU all for your inputs. it relly helped a lot to set my needs with the wishes. the first time i try this meg's combination of products, ill post a few words about it so we can see how far did i get.
 
loodi said:
..ill give the 105/205 combination a shot then before trying any AIO product....
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Depending which AIO you use, you might need to work at removing the oils that M205 leaves behind, and it really can take a bit of work as they're sometimes very tenacious.
 
nope. :/



people here are kinda stubborn/ignorant when it comes to detailing. "you dont need that, a good old wash with kitchen soap is more than enough" so... kinda hard to get ANYTHING!



anyway, i found the meguiars 105/205 combo interesting even before this topic started,before i started to notice 3m isnt compatible with my technique ( :) ), now im just...more confident about it. so im not gonna search further. ill go for the meg's. (hell, everything i bought from meguiars was excellent: wheel brushes, UQD, UQW, gold class carnauba, supreme shine towels, the other white towels, the water magnet, lamb wool washing glove.....everything!)
 
I'd get the Uno too... As you never know how a given car is going to react (original, repainted), it is always beneficial to have 2-3 lines of polishes with you. Some of them works good on sticky paint, some does not, some are great in the full sun, some will dry out in a second...
 
oh, but ill definitely keep the 3m in reach. im not gonna throw that.

so its gonna be 3m and meg's.

on the next paycheck, ill order some uno. (it costs too much if i order just one bottle. the taxes and shipment for 5 of them is the same as if i buy only 1.) so ill take 5-6 bottles in one shot, but cant afford it at the moment. for now, meguiars has to make me happy. :) at least till next month.
 
Your time does not seem unreasonable to me. I have not tried 3M products so I cannot give a relative comparison, but M105 can be a pain to work with. It tends to bake on and solidify like liquid nails or some other construction adhesive. It also is tempermental to different humidity. Don't get me wrong, I use it and have adapted over time, but the overall point is that there are only a couple of products I've ever bought that I was perfectly satisfied with. The rest of the time I find things that come close and keep experimenting. So I wouldn't trash your 3M stuff, I think those are good products from what I've read. And I wouldn't buy more than one bottle of 105/205. There are a number of people who love those, and a number who threw 105 in the trash since it is hard to use and 205 in the trash since it can be oily. Try them out and go from there.



Too bad about not being able to get Menzerna products, I'm a big fan.
 
as far as i understood, its not the product itself but its more like what product suits you best...

so it has to be a trial and error process.



i like 3m but im just finding some annoying disadvantages when working with it.

gonna try megs 1/205, maybe im gonna like it maybe i wont. (already dont like the oily part, just like the fine compounding 3m. more a filler than a compound)

then ill try some uno, same story....maybe im even gonna hate it for some reason.

then even if one of those come out to be the perfect one for me, im still gonna try something else...

till i get some experience with most of them and be able to make a comparision so i can pick up whats best for me, for my tools, and my technique.



(life sucks. just when you think you are finally getting the hand of it, you understand that actually you dont know s*** and need A LOT more experience than you thought you will need in order to achieve the result you want)
 
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