3M SMR's fillers rule!

B

beanbag

New member
If you don't want to read the whole story, skip to the end:



There was a peroid in my life when I thought that fillers were bad (especially with sealants). I had a bottle of the 3M SMR for light cars, and I was considering never using it again. Previously, I had done a section with SMR + IHG + Paste Wax (all 3M). I was going to strip it all down and use Menzerna IP, FP, Platinum Paint Cleaner, and PUPP. Well, I was about to hit it with the IP, and I thought, "dam, what a shame. That surface looks really nice, smooth and glassy" Well after the IP (and a failed attempt at FP) I could never quite get the surface as nice looking as before. My theory is that my paint has a very slight porosity to it (it's a 97 white Integra, and I suspect it isn't clearcoated) which you can only get rid of to a certain extent by polishing.



Jumping to a related story, my hood was done with the same procedure at around the same time. At first it looked really nice as well, but about 3 months later, a haze started to come back. My hypothesis is that the wax wore off and the fillers "fell out".



Jumping to a related story, the roof of my car was well polished with 3M Machine polish, 3M SMR, #7, and Medallion. It also looked nice for about 2-3 months, but eventually a haze came back. To test whether this haze was textural or oxidation related, I used Medallion Paint Cleaner on it a few times. (If it were oxidation, then the MPC would have done something). Nothing changed. So I taped off 3 sections: 3M IHG (mostly oil fillers), 3M SMR (mostly solid filler, I think), and nothing. Via hand application, I noticed that each time I applied the SMR, the haze lessened. (I applied 3x over the same area.) I don't think by hand it has enough cutting power to remove any significant surface irregularities, so I assumed it was filling. Now I put PUPP over all 3 sections.

IHG section: haze came back - I figure the solvents in the PUPP removed the oils.

SMR: haze did not come back - I guess the solids stayed put

section without anything - nothing changed and the haze was still there.



Then I thought, what about this "polymer bonding" crap? Today I SMR'd another section and then went over it with Platinum Paint Cleaner (to remove some of the oils). Well, the SMR fillers survived the PPC, further reinforcing my idea that they are solids. I figure that if you go over an area with the PPC, then UPP should "bond" to it fine.



Moral of story: 3M SMR seems to have solid fillers that you can put a sealant over. I still have to check how nice the surface looks (based on the reflection from a LED light, it looks very glassy and smooth), and whether the surface will stay like this indefinitely as long as I keep a layer of sealant or wax on top of it.
 
Good post .. Doesn't Zaino recommend 3M 39009 .. I always wondered about that .. Maybe the 39009 has solid fillers not oils.
 
Thank you for posting this....I just asked yesterday if there were any fillers that would interrupt the bonding process of Zaino, and wondered why Sal would recommend it if there's fillers in it....



-Matt
 
I am not sure, but the newly SMR'd surfaces do look a little bit "softer". Like if the rest of the car looks like glazed ceramic (smooth and hard, with a little bit of texture), then I would say that the SMR'd sections look more like milk, with a smooth, but softer, more diffuse reflection. I can't be sure, because I am comparing the hood and roof (horizontal surfaces) to the doors and fenders (vertical). Anyway, I didn't expect the tint in the SMR to exactly match my paint anyway. Another possibility is that upon applying the UPP or UPC, some of the fillers lifted out slightly, thus causing a more diffuse reflection at the surface. In any case, it's not really a fair comparison yet, because I am comparing one layer of UPP to 4 layers of UPP +S100 +QD.
 
beanbag said:
Then I thought, what about this "polymer bonding" crap? Today I SMR'd another section and then went over it with Platinum Paint Cleaner (to remove some of the oils). Well, the SMR fillers survived the PPC, further reinforcing my idea that they are solids. I figure that if you go over an area with the PPC, then UPP should "bond" to it fine.
Click to expand...



Platinum Paint Cleaner contains its own share of oil-based fillers. My guess is that the SMR fillers didn't "survive the PPC," but rather mixed with it. UPP is unlike Klasse or Zaino, IMO, and bonds perfectly fine onto oily surfaces, as it contains oils itself.
 
Now on my 3rd layer of UPP. I think the "hard ceramic" look is starting to return. Can't say for sure, though, as a hazy day really makes a white car look bad. I'll probably add one more layer on the hood and then start topping with S100. For the roof, I'll probably just keep adding UPP, since the temperatures up there get wicked hot, and I don't expect a carnauba to last long. After that, I'll keep track of whether the fillers "stay in".
 
The hood looks fine - no haze as seen by a LED light and only a small amount of haze as seen by street light reflections. I believe it was last topped with S100 over a month ago, and has only been QEW'd and QD'd and WAUD'd



Roof: not much haze either, but the surface is starting to look a little rough and crappy, mostly, I think, from watermark etchings due to condensation. I can't remember if I last used UPP or S100 on it, but it was probably UPP more than a month ago. I'm deciding whether or not to UPP it again in hopes of restoring smoothness to the surface.
 
Ihaven't used my 3M SMRs for over a year now.

I know how to fix most imperfections in paint; why hide them?



Clearly, I'm missing something, right?



Jim
 
Jimmy Buffit said:
Ihaven't used my 3M SMRs for over a year now.

I know how to fix most imperfections in paint; why hide them?



Clearly, I'm missing something, right?



Jim
Click to expand...



Amen, I ditched my 3m smr. I guess I've become too much of purist and was just too disappointed with smr espcially by hand. I would like to see how it performs by rotary though.
 
Jesstzn said:
Doesn't Zaino recommend 3M 39009 .. I always wondered about that .. Maybe the 39009 has solid fillers not oils.
Click to expand...



I just did my Black Grand Prix with 3M SMR, then Z5.... no bonding problems and the car looks amazing.....



64913qtrangle-med.jpg
 
Jimmy Buffit said:
Ihaven't used my 3M SMRs for over a year now.

I know how to fix most imperfections in paint; why hide them?



Clearly, I'm missing something, right?



Jim
Click to expand...



You have several things the average enthusiast doesn't:



Rotary

Get paid for doing a good job

Can spend all day detailing

Don't have to worry that much about clearcoat thinning since you probably won't work on the car repeatedly





For me, 3M SMR "fixed" a haze on my car that I could otherwise not get rid of. Then I covered the surface with UPP and the haze is not coming back. For me, that's just about as good as a permanent solution. Saves wear on my clearcoat too, since I plan to keep the car around for a while.
 
Another update:



Roof has no haze

Hood only has a tiny bit of haze.

In other words, no noticeable change from 2.5 months ago.



The only things I've done is wash and QD since last time. I'd say that 3M SMR under UPP is a semi-permanent solution. The SMR, in addition to filling, also seems to add a nice oily sheen you'd expect from a glaze. I also SMR + UPP'd the rear trunk lid and rear bumper. Those surfaces were pretty hazy to start with, but now they look pretty nice. I was feeling lazy and didn't want to aggressively polish them.
 
Very odd. SMR did NOTHING me by hand. Did not hide marring or improve gloss. Just might try it with the PC tomorrow because some fine scratches are back in my finish. I'll do a before and after if I do decide to do this.
 
I haven't washed the car for 3 weeks or more until today. The UPP has quite a bit of water spot etching. The roof seems to have a moderate amount of haze to it, but not nearly as bad as initially. I don't know if this will go away if I refresh the UPP again with the PC. It would suck if the fillers in the SMR "gave out" and I'd have to repolish. The hood still looks OK, though. It doesn't get as hot as the roof, of course.
 
The haze has not come back yet, so I think the SMR's fillers are still there. However, I have a bunch of etched in waterspots now, so I might strip everything and start over.
 
Beanbag- Keep us informed about what you do, both to the hood/waterspots and the rest of the vehicle. This SMR/UPP thing might be just the ticket for vehicles that can't be aggressively polished.
 
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