3 Machines, same pads, same compounds, gloss testing.

Accumulator said:
...With regard to the Velcro extending to the edge... correction), perhaps the overlapping pad effect mitigates any such issues :nixweiss



Just was trying to remove the potential for squishiness of the pad due to lack of support from the plate. Primarily because once the rotary gets to spinning, the pad stays loaded due to friction and motion, whereas the other two machines are always changing direction, so the loading is shifting (think of a washing machine running spin cycle versus agitation mode, and the clothing represents the foam movement).



Accumulator said:
Speaking of the overlapping pad effect....even the variation between various " 4" " pads can cause (admittedly minor) issues in this regard. The Cyclo's two pads usually bump against each other just a bit when perfectly centered (and/or with the Edge system) and when this bumping is excessive (slightly oversized pads, or imperfectly mounted ones) it can become so severe as to cause enough pad-to-pad contact that you get foam shedding, which can be a bit of an issue with certain foams. So I wouldn't expect larger pads to be feasible on the Cyclo. Using smaller pads would, of course, preclude the overlapping-pad effect; they don't overlap enough to allow for much leeway in that regard.



Good to know. For this theoretical test, any size pad would do.



Will have to make a point to give you a call soon.
 
BigAl3 said:
glad to see you posting kevin :tumblewee , it's been a while...



Accumulator said:
Hi, Kevin, nice to see you posting...



Thank you, guys! I've been eyeballing TID, DW, DB, AG, and MOL. Things are pretty quiet in the forum world, it seems. AG is somewhat active, and as for DW? Sheesh! Those guys. I check the threads and posts, go back an hour later, and there's 37 new threads and 536 new posts! Hard to keep up.



I posted a Machine Stroke thread on those sites, but as expected, it didn't get a lot of views. Pretty heavy reading.

Thanks to the guys that did read it, and those that requested PDF versions. :xyxthumbs
 
Kevin Brown said:
Double dag-nab it! I meant that it won't deliver a better result simply because it's a rotary- obviously judging by your meter readings it was the case this time. BOING! Rusty I guess...



Anyway, as an example, what would happen if we ran the same test using one-inch diameter pads?



Or, if in the rotary process, we were capable of moving the machine in a way that mimicked the movement of either the Cyclo or the Flex (moving the machine in an offset manner, creating a 5/16" eccentric motion as we buffed)?



Or, if we ran all three machines so that they all created a similar pad motion and pad speed? Could it be done? Hmmm...



Since the Cyclo has no trigger, and operates at a driveshaft speed of 3,000 RPM, we would have to use that number as our operating speed. Since the motion created by the Cyclo converts the driveshaft motion into one that moves each backing plate 3,000 times per minute around the driveshaft (creating a 5/16" diameter orbit as it moves), it's effectively creating 3,000 orbits per minute. As for actual pad rotation, we would have to find a pad and dial-in user applied pressure so that the random pad rotation would match the forced rotation speed of the Flex. Then adjust for machine-weight variances.



Since the Flex operates using a 20:1 driveshaft speed to backing plate rotation ratio, and through its gearing it creates an net of 10:1 backing plate orbit to backing plate rotation ratio, we'll set the machine speed to create 3,000 orbits and 300 revolutions per minute.



Now we'll need to find a pad that allows the Cyclo to rotate it at 300 RPM (or 5 times per second), while we use a similar applied downward pressure for all three machines. We can use the identically-sized pad for the Flex and the rotary, since they use forced rotation to drive the pad. So, diameter and height don't really matter, as long as the pad allows the Cyclo to create 300 RPM. It needs Velcro® loop material all the way to the edge. More on that later.



Oh yeah- we'll have to control the polishing area tightly! We have to be sure that equal amounts of passes cross the painted surface for each machine. If we hold all three machines completely still and turn them on, the Cyclo and the Flex will affect a 5/16" larger area than a rotary will, so our polishing area will have to equal pad diameter + 5/16". Well, that means that we can only judge the area that one of the Cyclo's pads will be polishing. Guess we know the maximum diameter pad we can use, taking into account the size that the Cyclo can accommodate. Since most guys use a 4" diameter pad, I suspect we can shoehorn a pad only a little bit larger in diameter (I don't own a Cyclo- somebody else will have to measure the shaft-to-shaft distance for us).



Dang, this may be to much to handle for even the most spectacular paint polishing guru! It must be done this way to be fair. Sorry. :xyxthumbs



What's left? Oh yeah- the rotary. Hmmm. The rotary machine is going to have to have a finger trigger or be air-powered, as we have to run it at 300 RPM. That's the easy part. The hard part is finding a guy that can move it in a manner that mimics the Flex and the Cyclo!



:soscared:



Hey- remember that application method plays a huge part in overall performance, and we need to negate variations in user-to-user method in order to create a fair comparison. Any takers? Non of you guys can move the rotary so that it creates a 5/16" diameter orbit around an imaginary axis? What are we here- a bunch of girlie men?!



Ah, no sweat. We'll just place the pad off center to the backing plate 5/32", effectively creating a 5/16" offset. Whew. Dodged that bullet.



All that's left to standardize now is the backing plate material. Let's use one that is rock solid, does not bend, and has Velcro hook all the way to the edge, so it fully supports the pad (remember the pad?). This way, we negate its effects. Weight does not matter, as we'll be keeping the pad laser level to the surface, and we will have already used it while determining the ideal pad for the Cyclo (remember- we had to find a pad that allowed the Cyclo to rotate the pad 5 times per second).



All set! Now we've got a fair test. Any takers? :lol



Kevin,



I would hate to see what is racing threw your mind if you are ever struggling on a compounding session. You really bring the science into this industry. I love it!
 
JohnKleven said:
David Fermani - You mentioned the SIP is not the best choice for a D.A., what would you recommend? I will sometimes use Power Finish on light colored cars if someone is looking for an inexpensive one step polish.



No secret there.....Meg's M105! SIP has mediocre cut with decent finishing capabilites. I've yet to see PowerFinish finish anywhere close to 85rd. Especially on soft paints.
 
Eppursimuove said:
Great test and interesting results. I thought rotary would be top and indeed, it was. I gotta get myself one of those...



And when you do, make sure you pick up one of these:

http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine-polishing/116649-dynabrade-dual-action-buffing-head.html



dynabrade21.jpg






And this new system:

D/A Microfiber System - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online



damf_group.jpg




Shorten your learning curve, and improve your gloss! :ignore
 
Man Kevin. Just when my Makita was retired to pad drying duty. I gotta have one of those Dynabrades!! Oh, and the MF buffing system will surely change the DA buffing game and open more people's eyes with how great a DA will correct and gloss out paint.
 
Hey Kevin - please explain a little more about the Dynabrade, how does it feel? is it like a big PC? how heavy?



Thanks!
 
RaskyR1 said:
Great test John! Thanks for taking the time to do it.





A lot to ask but it would be nice to see the test go a step further by wet sanding the paint followed by the basic refining steps using just one tool in order to get similar baseline readings. Then do the final jeweling to the paint with the different tools using the same zero cut pads and some PO85RD. I'm sure the rotary will still come out ahead, but it would be interesting if it could be done on both a Honda and an Audi to see how they differ. :)





Rasky



Good post Chad!
 
As much as I love my Flex 3401 I still swear by my Makita Rotary and swear the rotary cannot be beat for its level of gloss as well as correction ability.
 
JuneBug said:
Hey Kevin - please explain a little more about the Dynabrade, how does it feel? is it like a big PC? how heavy?



Thanks!



It doesn't feel as heavy or bulky as you might expect. It is typically paired with a rotary buffer that is much bigger in size that the typical electric random orbital, so you're able to get good leveraging due to the extended length and width of the machine (especially if you buff with a side handle installed).



Here is a copy and paste of a recent discussion about the Dynabrade (and my 2¢):





Kevin Brown said:
You really can't go wrong with either one, but for sure if you can get the switchable one, GET IT!



Here's the part number breakdown:



61374 Random Orbital Buffing Head (5/8"-11 female thread)



61375 Random Orbital Buffing Head (M14x2 female thread)



61379 Dual Action Buffing Head- Switchable



61384 Dual Action Buffing Head with Wool Pad and 7" Backing Plate (5/8"-11 female thread)



61385 Dual Action Buffing Head with Wool Pad and 7" Backing Plate (M14x2 female thread)



dynabrade-flyer.jpg





Kevin Brown said:
BY THE WAY... NONE OF THESE ATTACHMENTS CREATE A TRUE ROTARY ACTION.

The motion is always offset. That being said... they are still killer attachments!



These babies feature a 3/4" diameter orbit. That, my friends, is 2.5 times the stroke diameter of the Porter Cable 7424XP, the Griots 10765, and the Meguiar's G110v2. So what, you say? For an accurate comparison, let's use the G110v2, as Meguiar's lists its speed settings specifically:



1=1800 OPM / 2=2800 OPM / 3=3800 OPM / 4=4800 OPM / 5=5800 OPM / 6=6800 OPM



Let us assume that you want to run either machine at full speed in hopes of maximizing cutting or leveling power (it doesn't always work that way, but most times it does). It seems as though the Dynabrade attachment in forced rotation mode is the weakling among the two- and it is, if we are comparing how many times the backing plate would orbit around the driveshaft spindle.



If your goal is to repetitively rub a buffing pad across a patch of paint, the G110v2 will be superior. But, what is your purpose? Fine polishing of the area, or rapid removal of paint? If you are hoping to super-polish a surface so that it is visually glossier, you shouldn't be running the machine at full gait anyway. Look at these diagrams to better understand why:



stroke-pens-backing-plate-900-76q-1.jpg




stroke-patterns-900-53q-1.jpg




stroke-measurements-900-1.jpg




Lower the orbits per minute (OPM) but increase the pad speed at the edge, and you'll get a smoother polishing transition curve, yet gain cutting or leveling power. Pretty interesting.



So, let's be more realistic with our speed setting, and set the speed dial somewhere in the middle, perhaps an even 4,800 OPM, (which is speed setting 4 on the G110v2).



The G110v2 still delivers more repetetive rubbing of the paint than the Dynabrade, but when we compare the speed in which the outer edge of the backing plate is moving... it's a different story. Recall that the Dynabrade's stroke diameter is 2.5 times that of the G110v2. In order to equal the speed in which a point on the backing would be moving on the smaller machine, we would only need to set the rotary to 1,920 RPM to equal the 4,800 RPM delivered by the G110v2. Bump the speed dial all the way to 3,000 RPM on the rotary, and you've got an equivalent speed of 7,500 OPM with the smaller machines, which is a number they do not achieve. Speed increases force, and force keeps things moving when resistance is encountered. Ta-da! We've got serious cutting power, baby.



If you opt for the Dual Action Buffing Head and run it in locked mode, your machine will deliver a 1:1 ratio of rotations to orbits. That's some massive cutting power. :hungry:



Your typical rotary buffer (DeWalt DW849, Makita 9227C) can deliver up to 3,000 revolutions of the backing plate per minute and 3,000 orbits per minute. My best guess puts a loosely set-up random orbital at a maximum of 12 turns per second using the maximum speed setting, or 720 RPM and 6,800 OPM. That's using a 5.5" D/A Microfiber Disc or a Surbuf pad (good luck getting that level of speed with a foam pad).



All in all, the Dynabrade attachment is likely the most under-used yet ultra-capable machine on the market. It looks heavy, though, so most guys thinks it's going to feel bulky. Sure, it's bigger, but even though you'll be using a larger and heavier machine, the leverage is better, and high speed vibration is greatly diminished compared to the smaller and lighter machines, especially if you tend to run 'em wide open all the time.



This is an older thread which discusses the Dynabrade attachment:

http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine-polishing/116649-dynabrade-dual-action-buffing-head.html
 
Thanks - one last thing sir (in my best Lt Columbo voice) - with the Dynabrade, what kind of backing plate can you use? like, can you use different size LC backing plates? if not, what size comes with it?
 
Ooooooooooo - OK, but I'm still a bit confused, why cut down the Dynabrade backing plate if the other ones (yellow, 5/16 threaded bolt) will screw right on?Am I missing something? sorry to be a pain, but I'm just trying to justify buying one and if I can use my regular LC backing plates that fit the PC, then I'm in!
 
Back
Top