2019 Health & Fitness Thread

Marine Clerk- The EPA+DHA components of the Fish Oil both contribute to lowering overall systemic inflammation, but only the DHA will directly benefit the brain; the EPA just can`t make it through the blood/brain barrier (forget the reasons why...). Unless one drinks to excess (and thus notices the "hangover-proofing"), I can imagine those (brain) benefits to be basically transparent while overall reductions of inflammation can often be discerned, at least if the inflammation is significant.

Even if somebody only took EPA (and thus missed out on the brain benefits), the Fish Oil could still be of great benefit. Perhaps we`re kinda splitting hairs here, but I do think it`s worth considering getting a good dose of the DHA.

We have scads of places for bloodwork in my area, but I do prefer going somewhere in-network. Eh, I`d go back to that [crappy] Quest rather than pay out-of-pocket, but I wouldn`t be too happy about it. If I weren`t such an easy draw it`d be different and my wife will *gladly* pay for somebody good.

Heh heh, I`d just take an extra capsule daily, but it`s easy for me to spend your money :D How are you dividing up the dosage? I take 5/morning, then one with every meal, and enough in the evening (before bed) to make a total of 12 capsules. With the other Omega3-rich stuff I eat that`s probably plenty, and taking more can mess with me.


Yeah, I hear you on finding a good GP. When my previous (very good) guy switched to in-hospital only I had to do some work to find my current one. I`m one *VERY* picky customer when it comes to all aspects of Health Care ;) Anybody I consult simply must be suitable or I`m out of there, if only because of potential/eventual end-of-life issues; I`m not taking any chances with things going haywire at Life`s Finish Line.

[INSERT assumption/hope that everybody has a Medical POA and Living Will and makes sure all Health Care Providers are aware of the terms]

Yeah, "anti-skew". (In everything...good rant material there :D )

These days I hesitate to cast aspersions on the Medical Industry if only because of the anti-vaccine [individuals], society`s seeming embrace of willful ignorance, and the nutty sounding idea that "big pharma is keeping secrets from you to make $ off your ill health" (which sounds like a late-night infomercial to me).

BUT...the Fish Oil dosages in the tests I`ve seen are ludicrously low and I`m hard-pressed to come up with any other explanation; seems like a definite "set-up for failure" since *any* cursory research would indicate what the proper dosage oughta be. But then look at the people who still think they`re getting (useful) Omega3s from Flaxseed Oil :rolleyes:

On a more positive note, some of those low-dosage studies still showed benefits, so I guess that`s at least a clue.

And yeah, finding good info can be quite a, uhm...quest (heh heh heh, sorry, couldn`t resist). I`ll see some Study referenced and then track it down to see what it *really* was all about, which is often..usually, perhaps..not what the original reference claimed. Add to that the YMMV factor, and oh man do the waters get murky! Exact same reasons why I`m *still* figuring out just how I should exercise after so many decades.
 
Aw gee...L.L. Bean has changed the sizing of their Polos again :rolleyes: Now they`re smaller/more snug in the body (almost exactly one inch across the front measured at the base of the armholes) and sleeves, to the point that I can no longer wear them. They do this every now and then (I have Mediums and Larges of different vintages that are the *exact* same size..) and/but the timing [stinks] as I need some new ones. (Their current Large would be way too long in the sleeves.)

Eh, [fudge]...I know I`ve ranted about this before, but what gives?!? Their size M was fine a year ago..
 
I have Polo Ralph Lauren polos in large and extra large that are the exact same. Gotta try them on before buying them now. I won’t wear any of their slim fit offerings. They seem like larges that have shrunk.
 
Im considering switching to DoggCrapp training this fall, after the wedding. Still low volume, high intensity. Just formatted a bit different.
 
Bill D- If I didn`t have various issues with wearing Polo (ZERO issues with Ralph L. himself) I`d look into those just to see if they`d fit me.

St. Croix seems all synthetic blends, and "banded hems" these days.

Last time I tried an Izod it didn`t fit either.

Duluth Trading markets towards he-man construction workers, but the last time I tried one of theirs it was way too snug in places too (and their L just hung off me length-wise).

Pretty much stuck with the Orvis offerings with that stupid "zinger" instead of a pocket. Lighter weight copy of the old (and greatly missed by Yours Truly) Willis & Geiger ones (best polos, best *all-cotton anything*, ever IMO).

Utterly [freakin`] ridiculous, I`m not some huge bodybuilder or anything...why can I find OTR clothes that fit?!?
 
jrock645- I`d wondered what you were planning for after you get back. You think the DoggCrapp would work better than something you came up with yourself?

I never found anybody else`s program to be even remotely right for me compared to what I develop (which changes almost constantly in some way or another), and I`m always a bit surprised when others do OK on somebody else`s program(s). I mean...how can somebody know what`s optimally right for somebody else? I run into this exact same thing with regard to my wife`s workouts. I`m utterly convinced there`s a disconnect between any coach/etc. and the trainee if only because nobody can really get inside somebody else`s experience.

E.g., "I need to angle my arms back a few degrees and supinate my wrists at a different rate after the fourth rep or I won`t get the right...[blah blah blah].." Nobody else can determine that, only me. Even just how many reps/what weight for a given day`s workout...so many subjective variables that only the subject himself can analyze.

Heh heh..[INSERT Clubber Lang dialog about "I live alone, I train alone, I`ll win the championship alone..."]
 
Accumulator said:
jrock645- I`d wondered what you were planning for after you get back. You think the DoggCrapp would work better than something you came up with yourself?

I never found anybody else`s program to be even remotely right for me compared to what I develop (which changes almost constantly in some way or another), and I`m always a bit surprised when others do OK on somebody else`s program(s). I mean...how can somebody know what`s optimally right for somebody else? I run into this exact same thing with regard to my wife`s workouts. I`m utterly convinced there`s a disconnect between any coach/etc. and the trainee if only because nobody can really get inside somebody else`s experience.

E.g., "I need to angle my arms back a few degrees and supinate my wrists at a different rate after the fourth rep or I won`t get the right...[blah blah blah].." Nobody else can determine that, only me. Even just how many reps/what weight for a given day`s workout...so many subjective variables that only the subject himself can analyze.

Heh heh..[INSERT Clubber Lang dialog about "I live alone, I train alone, I`ll win the championship alone..."]
Click to expand...


Well, DoggCrapp lets you pick your exercises so you can do what you like and use what’s available. It’s really more about the methodology, a single rest pause set per exercise to get to 15-20 total reps after the two rest pause additions to the initial work set target of 10 reps to failure, 3-4 exercises per group. And the stretching. Pretty simple really, and flexible enough to be able to train around my limitations from my back injury.
 
jrock645- Ah, OK, now I follow!

The Rest-Pause brings up a good topic that I`ve been thinking on- Extending the set past initial failure.

I`ve generally favored Drop-Sets, but have used Rest-Pause too. But my latest reread of Menzter`s HD2 (oh it`s a slog even for a guy who appreciates Rand! If only Mike had been as smart as he thought he was :rolleyes: ) has me rethinking it.

His argument is that once you hit (initial) failure, there`s no point in continuing the set, period. He claims that it won`t build muscle or strength, but rather merely endurance (which could be enough for some people, but anyhow..). His argument is *not* based on scientific evidence (he doesn`t present any), he just assumes that people do that "out of fear", namely fear that they "aren`t doing enough" and that might be why I`ve been doing it.

If I continue the set past initial failure I`m likely to get increased DOMS, which I generally think is a good sign. (I *want* to feel DOMS even though I do believe it`s a sign that the training was, as the Doc said..."adequate but not necessary"). I`m erring on the side of caution lest the workout not yield results, and that sounds like Mentzer`s "fear" argument.

I just don`t know enough to formulate a knowledgeable opinion, and/but I`m sure giving it a lot of (hopefully productive!) thought. I don`t believe I`ve ever seen a study on this topic, at least not one that used experienced trainees.

General idea: More work = greater inroad and greater inroad = more gains.

BUT how does that work on the muscle fiber-level? Once the TypeII fibers hit exhaustion, they`ve been adequately (probably more than adequately) trained to potentiate gains. If the set is continued, do the same muscle fibers get *more* stimulation, and if so is that desirable? Do TypeIIB fibers recover that fast or are those still too played to contribute? OR, is it all TypeIIA fibers getting a (presumed) added benefit?

Does continuing the set deplete energy and/or neurological efficiency in a way that could compromise the rest of the workout? Does it create the need for additional recovery, and if so how does that affect the rest of the body?

Possibly related- Once I started resting a *LONG* time between sets, and I don`t mean just a few minutes, my gains skyrocketed. That was possibly the single best change I`ve made this decade. Resting for ages between sets seems opposite of extending a set. What would make one different/better/worse than the other?

I understand that different trainees want different results, and that might make extending the set better/worse for different people. For what *I* want I`m considering that it`s not really productive, at least not on a regular basis. So I`m trying *not* doing it for a while, *except* for Core work.

I want a different type of development where my Core is concerned (primarily the abs/obliques/etc.). I`ve been working those in *VERY* long sets and I do sometimes rest-pause so I can continue the set longer. It`s working great for that area, but I want very different things from my abs and obliques compared to my other muscle groups.
 
I remember Mike and him being against extending failure. In a perfect world, he may be right. But... let’s be honest here. Perfectly executed HIT style sets take a lot of mental fortitude and simply losing concentration for a split second can potentially end a set a half a rep early. I’ve taken lately to doing a fair amount of drop sets and or doing the rest pause to get another rep or two just to make for damn sure that I’ve hit failure. It may not be entirely necessary in that perfect world but that doesn’t mean it’s harmful.
 
Accumulator- That first statement you made in your reply really opened up a can of worms. Mostly related to DHA/EPA crossing the blood -brain barrier. From what I found out Krill Oil crossed the blood-brain barrier more readily because it has a phospholipid that the Omega-3`s are bound to. So that "Theoretically" supplementing with the right phospholipid , taken in conjunction with DHA/EPA, would promote better transfer across the blood-brain barrier.

Going down the same Rabbit Holes as you did, in reference to the types of studies, provided the TMI part of doing analysis/research. LOTS of stuff to weed through. :blink:

I agree with your comments about the test amounts of DHA/EPA be used. Really insignificant levels. Can`t see how they would come up with any other result than what they show. Wonder why they use this Methodology or what their motivations were.

My DHA/EPA amounts per week are broken down along these groupings. The DHA amount will be about 3.3 grams daily and the EPA amount would be 1.6 grams. That`s around 5.5 caps a day on a weekly basis. I`ll do 2 in the morning and lunch.One with dinner. I`ll be adding as needed for my weekly total.

I`m also a very "PICKY" person regarding all aspects of Health Care.;) I use the carpentry adage "Measure Twice ,Cut Once" to describe my research method. No need to get pushed towards end-of-life Issues by choosing the wrong option.:angry:
 
jrock645- That`s *exactly* what has me wondering...the "being harmful" as I see it as pretty much black/white where whatever`s not beneficial *is* harmful (at least to progress). Yeah, I guess I`m really splitting hairs here, but I guess I *am* basically trying to get that last x% sorted out, at last in terms of ongoing success as I get older.

Hitting Failure, which as I keep saying I always attempt to do, is simply *NOT* necessary for gains. Maybe for *optimal* gains, but plenty of people who *never* reach failure do great anyhow and I`m unaware of any study indicating that Failure is necessary any more than DOMS is (another thing I aim for anyhow). Maybe I`m *wrong* to always go to failure and to work so hard I get DOMS! (If so, it`d be mostly related to recovery/etc. and more importantly to wear-and-tear). When I quit making a big deal out of "not just concentric failure, but static and eccentric failure as well" I did *better* in every discernible way, zero downside at all.

That old bit about "the rep you fail on is the one that triggers gains" is scientifically (and anecdotally) unsupported. Heh heh, maybe Perl and Menzer are debating it in the afterlife :D

I don`t want to come across as anti-Mentzer, I just get disappointed in people who violate their own expressed beliefs and/or cherry pick data to stroke their confirmation bias.

To be clear: I respect and esteem the late Mike Mentzer something fierce.

Note that Menzter, Mr. Heavy Duty HIT proponent, didn`t stick with it. He`d get really out-of-shape and stay that way for a long time. His last book was "Muscles in Minutes" but apparently he couldn`t/wouldn`t put in those minutes year-in-year-out.

So was the flaw in the Theory, or in Mentzer`s application of it, or both?

IMO, theories that don`t work in practice are flawed and need to be revised. Good theories do work in practice, that`s what makes `em good. So the "perfect world" qualifier doesn`t work for me ;)
 
Marine Clerk- The Krill Oil factor brought me up short, I hadn`t considered that!

MY BAD: When I decided I was *not* going with Krill Oil I basically quit looking into it :o So I`m utterly ignorant about it for practical purposes and will defer to you. I do hope you`re right about the phospholipid even if we are just splitting hairs.

I do wonder if there`s any *downside* to having the ratios basically inverted, with twice as much DHA as EPA. I just don`t know and can`t recall what, if anything, Sears had to say about it.

(Eh, I know Sears is probably in it for the $, but he is a Lipid Scientist as his primary specialty.)

Yeah, it *is* indeed easy to hit the TMI! point, and it gets hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. That`s a big part of why I just decided to skip the Krill Oil (that and how the cost compared the one time I did look into it).

I believe the low-dose Fish Oil in the mainstream studies is simply a set-up designed to funnel resources/opinion towards somebody`s benefit. No, I don`t think that`s cynicism, if only because I`ve learned that a great many studies are not really motivated by a desire to uncover the truth; they couldn`t/wouldn`t be conducted the way they are if that were the real goal (any sop````re in an Experiment Design-type course knows better, so those researchers do too). Money, reputation, ego...all sorts of things really motivate people who are ostensibly working for The Greater Good and since nobody calls `em on it it just keeps on happening. Even when a Study is conducted well, and shows clear-cut results, it`s not all that unheard of for its Summary (only part many read) to say something directly contradicted by the results in the *body* of that study....the Oversight Committee must not have liked those results so they just wrote up what they *wanted* them to be (think the researchers will gripe if they want future funding, or tenure?).

Your last point related to End of Life Issues obviously resonates with me, and/but I`ll readily admit I`ve done, and continue to do, things that will undoubtedly shorten my life :( But I want to enjoy myself as much as possible while I`m still here, and the stuff we`re discussing in this thread helps me do that.
 
Accumulator- Given the added cost $ of Krill Oil plus the MUCH lower quantity of DHA/EPA per cap it`s not a good choice IMO. Possibly the best option is to add a stand alone phospholipid capsule to the mix. I`ll be road testing one by Jarrow Formulas called PS 100. It`s not inexpensive but since I`m just Guinea Pigging myself won`t be so bad. Between now and my next test for my GP I`ve got three months. Plenty of time to see, based on both tests and anecdotally, how it works.

Glad you brought up Sears. Don`t know a thing about him, so I`ll read up on what he has to say.

Your comments on the reasons for how Fish Oil studies are set up and interpreted make sense. Between Agendas, Ignorance and Angles you seem to have it covered.

I only nibble on the edges of shortening my lifespan. Common sense prevents me from pushing the envelope like I used to, regardless of my good genes for longevity.:D All in all I find this thread quite helpful.
 
My understanding is the benefit of krill oil is completely separate from epa/dha and instead is all about the anstaxin or however its spelled. Basically a very strong natural anti inflammatory. Might not do anything for blood lipid levels but could be great for heart health by lowering systemic inflammation. Were learning that cholesterol alone is pretty harmless if inflammation markers are low. Its when those go up that you start getting the issues.
 
My CRP level the last time I tested was .4 mg/L. CRP is medical shorthand for C-Reactive Protein. Which, measured in blood tests, tells you the level of inflammation in your body. https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/c-reactive-protein-test/about/pac-20385228

You are at a much lower risk of Heart Attack if your levels are 1-2 mg/L.

I take a 12 mg cap of Astaxanthin daily. Five caps of the average Krill Oil contain 1-1.5 mg of Astaxanthin.

The test I looked at show a positive reduction in inflammation at the 2 mg. a day level. https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...hyun/1ae9019a320977eab0bf27f878ce570d502b2bfe

So, if you`re taking 8-10 caps a day of Krill Oil you should be doing well.
 
Marine Clerk and jrock645- Thanks for the info on the Krill Oil. Wonder when they`ll do some human studies...

Marine Clerk- Barry Sears is (probably) primarily known for his Zone Diet, which my wife sorta-follows as she`s very carb-sensitive, although I think of him as Mr. Fish Oil. You`ve got to stow your cynicism when reading his stuff since he has skin in the game, what with all his "Zone"-trademarked products. I disregarded him totally for years for that reason and understand why others might too, and IMO his stuff isn`t exactly geared towards knowledgeable people, especially not those who are training properly and doing their own research.

BTW, Clarence Bass` review of the Zone Diet was an early indicator that he`s, uhm.. not always reliable :(
 
Marine Clerk- I`m probably more concerned with aging well than with my actual longevity. I`ve known far too many people whom I believe lived too long for one reason or another, and I worry more about that than about dying. And FWIW, an awful lot of those people also believed they`d lived too long; some came right out and said so, a few were downright desperate to die and [ticked] that they couldn`t check themselves out. Made such strong impressions on me that, as I tell my Docs, I`d much rather die five years too soon than five days too late.
 
Accumulator- Uhh.. The test I referred to in my last thread via a link , maybe I should have said study, was one done on humans.

FWIW, I always depend on multiple sources of information to corroborate what I`m looking for research wise.

I understand your opinion of the "Level" that Barry Sears writes at. I think it`s geared towards people who are just initially looking for nutritional information and are not that well informed. So, in writing "Down" to their level, he turns off a lot of people who already have a more comprehensive understanding of what they are looking for. Plus, on other occasions, a book is just being written for financial incentive and it shows.-_-

Clarence Bass` review of the Zone Diet was written over twenty years ago. I think things have change a bit , information wise, in the last two decades.

Your last thread was thought provoking and made sense. My analogy of health/wellness is like this. The person who says "If I live to be 80 I`ll be satisfied" is akin to being in a sailboat that is rudderless and expecting to get to your destination. I much prefer a sailboat with a rudder. Curiosity will take you a long way in this world, complacency won`t. The "Oh Well" mind set will end up putting you in position where it`s too late to make changes . That`s when the rehashing of the woulda, coulda, shoulda, can take place. I think ageing well and being well go hand in hand as far as longevity.
 
Marine Clerk- OOPS, my bad :o I read "Similar clinical studies in humans are unavailable.." and quit reading. Ticks me off, I try to do better than that :(

(I did just now go back and read the thing...thanks for calling me on that.)

I don`t know enough to determine whether the beneficial changes were (functionally) significant though...my layman`s ignorance ran smack dab into stuff I can`t evaluate.

I don`t really mind the level of Sears` writing, but rather that he gears everything towards people who are way out-of-shape and very ignorant about Fitness. His "exercise recommendations" are, uhm...unsatisfactory. But I also get that most people reading his stuff don`t know anything about it and wouldn`t do what they oughta if it were spelled out for them ("oh, that`s too extreme"!).

What bugged m wife and me about Bass` review of The Zone Diet book was that he got *so* much of what Sears wrote wrong that he must`ve just skimmed it (as I did that Astaxanthin article....pot, meet kettle). I don`t recall the specifics, but we looked specific stuff up *in the book* and it wasn`t what Bass said it was.

The whole Financial Incentive really does come to mind with Sears, what with his Zone Labs` products being his answer to everything.

Possibly related: he apparently doesn`t always use his products himself. There have been a few cases where Nutritious Living (actual manufacturer of Zone Cereal) has dropped the QC ball and turned out bad batches. One was so bad it was like eating cardboard (and I don`t mine eating Fiber1 dry, so when I say that...). Had Sears taken one bite of that batch he would`ve undoubtedly called them up and told `em to fix his cereal...but when I called The Zone they had no idea and it took *forever* for them to sort it out (we ate different Nutritious Living cereal in the meantime after sending back all that terrible Zone stuff). That really made me wonder...

But yes indeed, the advances in all this stuff over the last two decades have indeed rewritten a lot of previously accepted dogma. Heh heh, funny that the Therapeutic Dose of Fish Oil somehow hasn`t gotten through to people "studying" it yet ;)

And yeah, your last paragraph makes me think we`re pretty much on the same page, especially regarding complacency and (intellectual) curiosity.

It simply astounds me that people are willing to just *decline* as they age and that they accept so many, uhm..."age related" limitations...as being inevitable. As I`ve posted before, I grew up around people who lived actively, independently, right up to the end. "Senility" was something that happened to other people, not to the elderly I knew, they were all sharp as tacks. I figured that was normal...
 
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