2 year ceramic vs carnuba test

Thanks stok. Appreciate that point of view. Is 1k per layer of ceramic pro reasonable?


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I would avoid anyone who is trying to sell you on per layer. Two part coatings work best, they are two interlocking layers. I`m not a fan of ceramic pro and certainly not, their direct or indirect marketing with this whole more layers is better.

Coatings are NOT a substitute for PPF.
 
The Driver said:
I would avoid anyone who is trying to sell you on per layer. Two part coatings work best, they are two interlocking layers. I`m not a fan of ceramic pro and certainly not, their direct or indirect marketing with this whole more layers is better.

Coatings are NOT a substitute for PPF.
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Nanolex?
Fitech?

Its hard to understand how a ceramic can adhere to film just and just as easy adhere to metal with paint on it.

My hope for the suvs was use the ceramic to protect from getting swirls from the automatic car washes that inevitably we use during the winter months. The modesta really didnt do that on my escalade.


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I don’t know of any coating that will not get swirls from an automatic car wash. Don’t bother with any coating if you plan on using an automatic car wash to maintain your car. It’s a waste of money. The only way to minimize swirls is to hand wash your cars with certain techniques.

Maybe a self healing PPF will not swirl up but it may get discolored from the product used by the automatic car wash. I believe someone’s PPF turned purple due to soap from a self serve car wash a few months ago.
 
ttforcefed said:
Nanolex?
Fitech?

Its hard to understand how a ceramic can adhere to film just and just as easy adhere to metal with paint on it.

My hope for the suvs was use the ceramic to protect from getting swirls from the automatic car washes that inevitably we use during the winter months. The modesta really didnt do that on my escalade.


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It`s actually easier on Film being it`s more porous, that said it depends on the Film. There are some newer films that are now pre-coated (I`m not sure what they are using or how it will handle high PH chemicals but will see).

To my knowledge, there are no avoidable ways to stop swirls if you are using an automatic car wash. I`ve used all the best coatings except Modesta (Which I removed for a client) and not one has ever resisted swirls.

Alright, so let`s get into the science of it, hopefully this will clarify things a bit better.

My original point is that no coating or PPF will resist swirls from an automatic car wash, why? Simply because the debris being agitated (Rubbed) especially in winter months are caked up and HARD (Sand is Glass, right?). Heavy build up road debris like slush and grime in the winter months has to be washed off gently (Think about it like dragging a boat across the sand, it would be a lot easier if water was between the boat and the sand, the same concept applies. You always want to provide as much floatation/lubrication as possible to avoid swirls and scratches).

Automatic car washes, use harsh chemicals (Acidic), tough wash media (Ie plastics or nylon brushes, they aren`t using soft materials safe material like boars hair it`s not cost effective and they won`t last) that WILL scratch anything. Remember this is a business where it`s about time-saving not quality or safety. The ONLY way to that I can see to dealing with this problem is two options.

1. Avoid these places, which almost all of us do.
2. PPF that is self-healing (Scratches and swirls can be healed out by heat with high-end films (Like the one I applied above, Suntek Ultimate). Again it`s best to coat PPF because although it can heal it can also stain with harsh chemicals like we can see here (The point I alluded to earlier about chemical resistance, this is where coatings shine - No pun intended).

Car wash PPF stain - https://www.autopia.org/forums/car-detailing/189822-car-wash-soap-stained-ppf.html

Layer of C-pro is more of a marketing thing - https://www.autopia.org/forums/car-detailing-product-discussion/188519-ceramic-pro-layering.html

Hope this helps.
 
ttforcefed said:
Nanolex?
Fitech?

Its hard to understand how a ceramic can adhere to film just and just as easy adhere to metal with paint on it.

My hope for the suvs was use the ceramic to protect from getting swirls from the automatic car washes that inevitably we use during the winter months. The modesta really didnt do that on my escalade.


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If you are taking them through an automatic car washes then don’t bother with a coating. They are not impervious to scratches and will still swirl in those conditions.

Stick with an AIO if you are planning to wash them like this.
 
ttforcefed said:
Its hard to understand how a ceramic can adhere to film just and just as easy adhere to metal with paint on it.
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IMO the current paint tech on cars is basically "plastic" so your not really putting a coating on metal. So to me I don`t see a ton of difference between putting a coating on PPF vs paint. But that is only my opinion as I am not a paint or PPF expert.




ttforcefed said:
My hope for the suvs was use the ceramic to protect from getting swirls from the automatic car washes that inevitably we use during the winter months. The modesta really didnt do that on my escalade.
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I wouldn`t expect any coating to stay swirl free when using an automatic car wash. Coatings help to make it more marring / swirling resistant but it isn`t going to be a 100% force field. It sounds to me like your detailers oversold you on pros/cons of coatings.
 
TroyScherer said:
IMO the current paint tech on cars is basically "plastic" so your not really putting a coating on metal. So to me I don`t see a ton of difference between putting a coating on PPF vs paint. But that is only my opinion as I am not a paint or PPF expert.






I wouldn`t expect any coating to stay swirl free when using an automatic car wash. Coatings help to make it more marring / swirling resistant but it isn`t going to be a 100% force field. It sounds to me like your detailers oversold you on pros/cons of coatings.
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This was going to be my question. Sounds like a expectation vs. reality scenario here.

You specify that you had Modesto put on your car specifically to be able to take it through the car wash in the winter months. Did whoever applied the Modesto application discuss that a coating will not withstand swirls/ scratches from improper care/ tunnel washes? Did you speak about the maintenance plan to take it through the car wash in the winter?

One of my cars that sits out pretty much 24/7 has a coating on it because I know its going to be the best protection I can afford for it outside of a wax or sealant. I only have the opportunity to wash this car maybe once a month sometimes longer due to other obligations. It gets hit with bird droppings, leaves, rain, pollen etc. and the coating has helped maintain the paint as best as possible for that situation. Is it perfect? no, but it would be worse off without it I am certain of that.

Now if I had a exotic/ luxury vehicle I would 100% do full PPF or cover the main areas like bumper, hood, rocker panels, mirrors etc. to protect that paint as much as possible. So yes, if I had a F430 I would be covering that entire car with PPF then putting a coating on it because I understand the strengths of each of those products.

P.S. I am so curious about the 25 car stable! Any pics you can share? :) lol
 
Marring resistance and or swirl resistance (what people jumped to when they heard marring) is not really a true property in the coatings I have heard of or seen

Maybe less marring from a very careful two bucket wash and dry. But as others state certainly not from an auto car wash. The wash I use has some sort of cloth strips. It’s not a nylon brush and I haven’t seen one of those in I bet more than 20 years at least around where I live. Used to be tons of gas stations had free car washes with fill ups and those I recall having brushes nylon ```````s that surely were swirling it

The clothes aren’t the hardest on the car. They aren’t delicate touch of a human hand but they are also done in a few mins.

The touchless really leave road film on cars so that’s another thing you have to battle come spring but at least most of the bad stuff has been rinsed or washed off where it can reach


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MattPersman said:
Marring resistance and or swirl resistance (what people jumped to when they heard marring) is not really a true property in the coatings I have heard of or seen

Maybe less marring from a very careful two bucket wash and dry. But as others state certainly not from an auto car wash. The wash I use has some sort of cloth strips. It’s not a nylon brush and I haven’t seen one of those in I bet more than 20 years at least around where I live. Used to be tons of gas stations had free car washes with fill ups and those I recall having brushes nylon ```````s that surely were swirling it

The clothes aren’t the hardest on the car. They aren’t delicate touch of a human hand but they are also done in a few mins.

The touchless really leave road film on cars so that’s another thing you have to battle come spring but at least most of the bad stuff has been rinsed or washed off where it can reach


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It`s not really the cloth mops that are the issue, it`s the dirt that`s stuck to them. If you ever look at a vehicle that frequents those style of washes the swirls get worse the lower you go down on the vehicle because that`s where all the dirt is. Those soft cloth mops pick up dirt and debris from you wheels and wheel wells and just hammer away on the paint.

 
ttforcefed said:
Thanks stok. Appreciate that point of view. Is 1k per layer of ceramic pro reasonable?


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You are welcome..
Have never been a fan of ceramic pro coatings period, so I think that is terribly unreasonable..
Dan F
 
ttforcefed said:
Nanolex?
Fitech?

Its hard to understand how a ceramic can adhere to film just and just as easy adhere to metal with paint on it.

My hope for the suvs was use the ceramic to protect from getting swirls from the automatic car washes that inevitably we use during the winter months. The modesta really didnt do that on my escalade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Do you have any touchless car wash in your area you live in?

Sure it uses some pretty nasty acidic based cleaners. But with a consumer coating on the vehicals. You often only need to do a thorough decon wash when it`s possible. And you maybe not getting a squeeqe clean paint after a touchless wash. But it`s way better than swirled up paint from the automatic car washes.

Since you have a lot of cars. How about you build your own wash bay or convert a place that are suited for it. And if you don`t want to do it your self. A detailer would love to come to you with a nice wash bay setup. Where he can use a PW to clean your vehicals with. Prewash with a foamcannon and a good prewash foam makes it almost a touchless wash. The hand wash after that is a breeze to do. That way you can use a protection that is chemical resistant. Coatings excells on that part. But there is sealants and synthetic waxes that is it too. Take a look on Obsessed Garage on Youtube. He has alot of info and even sells products that you can eqiup a wash bay with. And if you where to do it your self. Could you drive in your vehical and foam it and wait a couple of minutes. Then PW it off from the bottom and work your way up. Take the hose from the blow dryer and dry the car with. This would take you max about 20-25 minutes to do. You have the foam unit build in your PW setup and mixing it on it self. Switch to another PW lance or just switch on the one lance to PW with water and even warm water would make it even more effective. The Master Blaster to blow dry the car. Or have a DI water system to let it air dry. And even if you have a detailer to do it. In the longrun it can be worth it. If I would have the funds and place to build or rebuild a wash bay. I would do it and don`t look back. Maintance and to take care of your cars paint would be worth it.
 
SWETM said:
Do you have any touchless car wash in your area you live in?

Sure it uses some pretty nasty acidic based cleaners. But with a consumer coating on the vehicals. You often only need to do a thorough decon wash when it`s possible. And you maybe not getting a squeeqe clean paint after a touchless wash. But it`s way better than swirled up paint from the automatic car washes.

Since you have a lot of cars. How about you build your own wash bay or convert a place that are suited for it. And if you don`t want to do it your self. A detailer would love to come to you with a nice wash bay setup. Where he can use a PW to clean your vehicals with. Prewash with a foamcannon and a good prewash foam makes it almost a touchless wash. The hand wash after that is a breeze to do. That way you can use a protection that is chemical resistant. Coatings excells on that part. But there is sealants and synthetic waxes that is it too. Take a look on Obsessed Garage on Youtube. He has alot of info and even sells products that you can eqiup a wash bay with. And if you where to do it your self. Could you drive in your vehical and foam it and wait a couple of minutes. Then PW it off from the bottom and work your way up. Take the hose from the blow dryer and dry the car with. This would take you max about 20-25 minutes to do. You have the foam unit build in your PW setup and mixing it on it self. Switch to another PW lance or just switch on the one lance to PW with water and even warm water would make it even more effective. The Master Blaster to blow dry the car. Or have a DI water system to let it air dry. And even if you have a detailer to do it. In the longrun it can be worth it. If I would have the funds and place to build or rebuild a wash bay. I would do it and don`t look back. Maintance and to take care of your cars paint would be worth it.
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thanks for the suggestion. approx 20 of the 25 cars are garage queens that dont see the light of day much, they are stored at a constant 65 degrees 365 days a year. as you can probably tell im a traditionalist so the right cocktail for those is clean, glaze, and zymol. Its the work horses that i am thinking more of wrt to ceramics etc.

tried uploading a pic of my f40 at nationals a few weeks ago but its not working.
 
Stokdgs said:
You are welcome..
Have never been a fan of ceramic pro coatings period, so I think that is terribly unreasonable..
Dan F
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What ceramic do you like? And is that the same if i wanted to put on top of ppf or wrap?


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I haven`t read every post so not sure if anyone brought this up but just because half the vehicle was coated doesn`t mean that the entire hood wasn`t coated. Does the roof look the same?? Do the doors on both sides look the same?
Assuming the hood was split down the middle I also believe there has been protection added during the washes, a wash and wax car wash or something that left protection behind. The giveaway that some other protection is on there is the fact that the beading is consistent all the way across the hood. Try washing the vehicle with CarPro Reset or Feynlab Pure and see what the results look like. I`m pretty sure you`ll find the hydrophobic properties on the coated side increase and on the wax side there won`t be anything. You may actually have to wash it a couple times.
 
Just an idea from way out in Left Field, something that worked great for me when I wasn`t gonna bother with this stuff for a while:

Absent somebody who`s meticulously cleaning the Dailies even in winter, I`d just go the Disposable Vehicle route. Put all the available resources (other than some $ ) into the ones that matter and just replace the beaters every few years.

I know a scad of people who *NEVER* do any detailing at all; they just let the dealer do a wash/etc. during servicing, and then they get a new one after a few years (easy enough with today`s lease arrangements). Their vehicles don`t look any worse to me than most people`s "detailed" cars.

When I read "..through a carwash" I think that, well..."that`s that!" with regard to the vehicle`s appearance. I mean, sheesh, it`s hard enough to keep something decent in the winter when an experienced person spends many hours with the right facilities. (Although I`ll admit I`m kinda, uhm...binary...about whether a vehicle looks OK/not :o ) Pick your battles...
 
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