1st PC usage, lots of marring left

I

imported_perry

New member
I picked up a PC from Lowes and pads from CMA and TOL this past week, so I naturally had to try my stuff out today!



The PC is MUCH more powerful than my poor little Craftsman buffer. The two just don't compare. Anyone using one of the cheaper buffers would be well advised to upgrade!



I just worked on half of my hood today so I wouldn't waste time doing the entire car in case I was doing something wrong. Today was just a chance to get aquainted with the machine. I taped off the half I was working on so I could compare and contrast the two sides. I really don't have many swirls on my finish, but lots of marring from acid rain and stuff. The car has lived outside for 8 years and been in a couple accidents (repainted panels..), so that's to be expected. I went in hoping that I could reduce some of the problems.



First I used Meg's #82 SFP in a section, but observed that the marring wasn't really going away. So up to #83 DACP w/ a polishing pad. I also got a cutting pad but opted not to use that my first time out.



Having never used a PC before, and never seen one in use, I was stuck trying to remember techniques I had read. I "primed" the pad by putting a thin line around the edge and rubbing it in with my finger. Then another thin line around the edge and spread the polish around the section I was working w/ the PC off. Then turned it on at about 3 to spread the product more. Then up to 5 (briefly tried 6, but didn't like the vibrations). I made passes front to back and side to side, trying to overlap. After a few passes, the DACP started to dust up. Removed it with a MF towel and it came off really easily. Back down to SFP, then S100 SEPC and EX-P on finishing pads. Does it sound like I was using the PC correctly? Should I apply the products differently?



Pulled the car back in to the sun and still saw what I guess is marring. It's especially visible at the ends of the sun's reflection. I took other pictures after each step, but accidentally had the camera in manual mode so they didn't come out too good.



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I guess that I won't get rid of the marring without a cutting pad, and that may not even be enough. Again, 8 years of being outside and only in the past 3 or 4 have I been using decent protective products, and just discovered abrasive stuff w/ my Craftsman about 2 years ago. That said, it still irks me because I know about the ugliness that is there. I guess this car will be my learning platform so I can take better care of my next car :)
 
It sounds like your technique is fine.



It's hard to see what you are talking about in the picture, but my guess is that you need to use a cutting pad. Realize also that you aren't going to get the finish 100% with a PC. Don't be afraid to use the PC on 6...mine rarely leaves 6 when doing correction work. It's much more effective this way, IMO.
 
I don't think that's marring, I think that's clearcoat etching....I have it too, and Scottwax has the same thing on his hood.
 
ZaneO said:
It's hard to see what you are talking about in the picture, but my guess is that you need to use a cutting pad. Realize also that you aren't going to get the finish 100% with a PC. Don't be afraid to use the PC on 6...mine rarely leaves 6 when doing correction work. It's much more effective this way, IMO.
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That's what I figured, about the cutting pad. It was calling out to me to remove it from the bag! But, I decided that I'd rather be safe than sorry for my first time out.



I did crank it up to 6 for a couple moments, but I noticed that the vibration really increased compared to 5. I'm sure it's normal (5" pad, 6" CW), but I didn't much care for the feel. Just need to get used to it I guess. Again, rather safe than sorry.



The picture does suck, but what I see is lots of tiny little scratches in completely random directions. They're only visible with light directly on them. Is marring the correct term? (edit: now I see that it isn't)



I know I won't be able to get 100%, especially with the condition of my car (looks good from 10ft away..). Didn't really expect to. Not really complaining. Just commenting on what I did with a couple questions thrown in ;)



I think I'll try out the trunk lid next weekend and see what happens on 6 w/ the cutting pad.
 
MattZ28 said:
I don't think that's marring, I think that's clearcoat etching....I have it too, and Scottwax has the same thing on his hood.
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That is what it looks like to me too. My brother was the second owner and I know he hardly washed it and never waxed it, let alone polished it. Who knows what the original owner did. I have those same little dots that just won't go away but are only visible in direct full sun and even then, only at certain angles. Based on the abuse the car had the first 5 years of its existance, I am amazed with the improvements I have made just with the PC.



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Based soley on the picture, your paint looks really good. Very wet looking and I don't see any swirls or marring.
 
ZaneO said:


It's hard to see what you are talking about in the picture, but my guess is that you need to use a cutting pad. Realize also that you aren't going to get the finish 100% with a PC. Don't be afraid to use the PC on 6...mine rarely leaves 6 when doing correction work. It's much more effective this way, IMO.
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I was using a Meg's backing plate and cutting pad on 6....and overheated the system at the velcro. Meguiars told me I shouldn't use a cutting pad on a PC, and not to go over 5 in any case. I have been looking into other backing plates/pads...what's your secret for running at 6?
 
quote:

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Originally posted by MattZ28

I don't think that's marring, I think that's clearcoat etching....I have it too, and Scottwax has the same thing on his hood.



Scottwax said:
That is what it looks like to me too. My brother was the second owner and I know he hardly washed it and never waxed it, let alone polished it. Who knows what the original owner did. I have those same little dots that just won't go away but are only visible in direct full sun and even then, only at certain angles. Based on the abuse the car had the first 5 years of its existance, I am amazed with the improvements I have made just with the PC.



Ok...are you guys saying that there is nothing Perry can do about the clearcoat etching?
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Setec Astronomy said:
Ok...are you guys saying that there is nothing Perry can do about the clearcoat etching?
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Can't say without seeing the car in person.



My car has what almost looks like metallic in the paint in harsh, direct sunlight but they are actually very small pits. Maybe some rail dust contaminiation from when the car was originally shipped maybe. 95% of the time, you can't see them.
 
First off, what "marring" means in the detailing context depends on who you ask. I*M*O "etching" is a form of "marring". But anyhow :D



Perry- I think you doing fine, let alone for your first try with the PC.



I would *NOT* try to fully remove acid-rain type etching, it would mean taking off too much clear. And that's rotary-work or maybe even wetsanding. I'd live with it, no question.



I *do* see some "regular marring" in the paint too, sorta like light scratches. Whether more work with DACP (and maybe a cutting pad) will get it out, I dunno.



The process generall sounds fine, it's just that sometimes you have to do it (the DACP/SFP polishing part) for a *long* time with numerous passes. But then that might start to thin the clear, so don't overdo it in search of perfection.



I can't imagine why Meg's phone reps said "no cutting pad on PC", Mike Phillips (from Meguiar's) does it all the time and so do *many* other Autopians, myself included. Meg's phone reps sometimes give out totally incorrect advice :rolleyes: and this is one of those times.



And I do almost *all* of my PC polishing at 6 (have for many years). No trick to it at all, but maybe there's some issue with the Meg's backing plate (that's one I haven't tried). Yeah, it vibrates a bit, but not as much as it does with larger pads. The CMA "flex" backing plate helps a little.
 
Accumulator said:


I can't imagine why Meg's phone reps said "no cutting pad on PC", Mike Phillips (from Meguiar's) does it all the time and so do *many* other Autopians, myself included. Meg's phone reps sometimes give out totally incorrect advice :rolleyes: and this is one of those times.



And I do almost *all* of my PC polishing at 6 (have for many years). No trick to it at all, but maybe there's some issue with the Meg's backing plate (that's one I haven't tried). Yeah, it vibrates a bit, but not as much as it does with larger pads. The CMA "flex" backing plate helps a little.
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Mike Phillips (via MOL) is the one who said not to use the 7006 cutting pad in general (unless he has changed his mind since then, he said he would experiment), and he just chastised me for running my PC over 5; he says he is going to have the Meg's G-100 instructions updated to say not to go over 5...so you can see why I'm asking for the "secret"...which seems to be something other than the Meg's pads/backing plate.
 
My PC backing plates are Auto Quip plates from CMA/TOL. All are holding up rather well. My PC is now on "extended holiday" since I just got the Cyclo Saturday :D
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Mike Phillips (via MOL) is the one who said not to use the 7006 cutting pad in general (unless he has changed his mind since then, he said he would experiment), and he just chastised me for running my PC over 5....
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OK, thanks for explaining further. I stand corrected regarding Mike's/Meg's recommendations, though that's quite different from what I recall his having said in the past. Hey, not an issue; things change :cool:



But as for the speed-6 thing, maybe it's Meguiar's specific. There have been issues with Meg's pads being used on the PC (they seem to hold up a lot better on a rotary- different sort of stress on them when they only spin/rotate as opposed to the PC's "jiggle action" as Mike puts it) and maybe that has something to do with it. Again (not to belabor the point :o ), I've used pads (including cutting pads) and backing plates from other makers at speed 6 for countless hours over more than ten years with no problems at all, except for the sorta unpleasant vibration.



Bill D- But that's when I'm not using the Cyclo ;)
 
Yeah, I recall the Megs *pads* having an issue when used with the PC but as for the plates :nixweiss



I liked the other brand due to the greater variety of sizes, ( and now flexiblity IIRC) including the 4" which I 've become a big fan of.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Mike Phillips (via MOL) is the one who said not to use the 7006 cutting pad in general (unless he has changed his mind since then, he said he would experiment), and he just chastised me for running my PC over 5; he says he is going to have the Meg's G-100 instructions updated to say not to go over 5...so you can see why I'm asking for the "secret"...which seems to be something other than the Meg's pads/backing plate.
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Meguiar's doesn't recommend using our W-7006 foam cutting pad on the PC. For too many people, they're going to get into trouble using this aggressive of a pad on this tool.



I have used the W-7006 foam cutting pad on the PC, but it's usually for removing oxidation and dirt in paint on single stage finishes. The problem with using cutting pads on the PC, and especially when using this combo on a clear coat is they tend to leave the finish looking dull because they micro-mar the finish. Removing the micro-marring using a less aggressive pad and product combo doesn't always work. Thus the recommendation to use the W-7006 on the PC.



Now for Autopians, some of you may be able to get away with it, if you know what you're doing and have an arsenal of products to draw from in you get into trouble. But for the average person... it's too risky.



I think at the Autopia Detail Day at Meguiar's, I demonstrated on a clear coated black finish how the W-7006 foam cutting pad will quickly dull the finish down. (Could have been another event, I can't remember). I have an extreme makeover on a black Corvette this Thursday, if any Autopian would like to join in, please feel welcome. The paint on this car will be easy to show the dulling effect of using a cutting pad on the PC.



Mike
 
Mike Phillips said:
The problem with using cutting pads on the PC, and especially when using this combo on a clear coat is they tend to leave the finish looking dull because they micro-mar the finish. Removing the micro-marring using a less aggressive pad and product combo doesn't always work. Thus the recommendation to use the W-7006 on the PC.
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Mike, surely if the finish is ALREADY dull, this can't be made worse with the 7006 pad? It kind of goes without saying that you aren't going to use a cutting pad on a finish that's in good shape, just like you wouldn't use a cutting compound.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Mike, surely if the finish is ALREADY dull, this can't be made worse with the 7006 pad? It kind of goes without saying that you aren't going to use a cutting pad on a finish that's in good shape, just like you wouldn't use a cutting compound.
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The problem is removing the marring instilled by a cutting pad using a PC. I would say most people don't have the skill and experience to to use a cutting pad on a PC and if they dull their finish down, they don't possess the skill, experience or arsenal of products to recover.



The polishing action of the PC is very different than the polishing action of a rotary. Take our W-7006 foam cutting pad with some #84 Compound Power Cleaner and machine buff a clear coated black finish and you can produces a very clear, rich, reflective finish. Put those same two products on a PC and you will leave behind a dull finish that for most people, will be hard to undo.



Now part of the issue with this is perception. For someone working on a finish in really bad condition, to use a cutting pad and a compound on this finish and improve it would look good in their eyes. To then polish and wax it would even look better, so in their eyes they have been successful. If a more experienced person were to look at their results and consider their process, they might think there is still room for improvement.



Point being, Meguiar's doesn't recommend using their cutting pad on the PC, there is too much room for making a mistake the average person cannot recover from.



Mike
 
Mike Phillips said:


The polishing action of the PC is very different than the polishing action of a rotary. Take our W-7006 foam cutting pad with some #84 Compound Power Cleaner and machine buff a clear coated black finish and you can produces a very clear, rich, reflective finish. Put those same two products on a PC and you will leave behind a dull finish that for most people, will be hard to undo.
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Not to go around in circles, but #84 is a rotary-only compound, and the start of this thread was that Perry was using #83 DACP, which is labeled for PC use. I would expect that if you didn't fully break down a rotary compound, you might haze the finish and find that difficult to remove. I'm going to shut up now.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Not to go around in circles, but #84 is a rotary-only compound, and the start of this thread was that Perry was using #83 DACP, which is labeled for PC use. I would expect that if you didn't fully break down a rotary compound, you might haze the finish and find that difficult to remove. I'm going to shut up now.
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I only used the #84 Compound Power Cleaner as an example. If you substitute #83 in the above example, (with a cutting pad), the results are the same.



I think what would be interesting to see, would be to make a few passes with the rotary buffer in a section on the hood with the #83/W-8006 on a rotary buffer on about the 1500 rpm setting and then inspect to see if the marring is gone.



This would tell you if the defect can be removed. If it can, then it may require the use of a rotary buffer. If it cannot, then the problem may be in the paint, as in throughout the paint, and not on the surface?



Just a guess...



Mike
 
Mike- Just a "Thanks!" for clarifying your/Meguiar's position on this. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, let alone the *wrong ones*.



About the cutting pads on the PC, sometimes it's all too easy to forget the target audience when it comes to "advanced" techniques. After a while some of these things sorta become de rigueur to some of us....familiarity and all that :o That's one reason why you're a Technical Training Specialist, huh :xyxthumbs
 
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