$$$$$$

[gmblack3]

I guess it all depends on the user. Personally when using the new non diminishing abraisives and a PC (the KBM), I can often achieve as much correction, in less time than when using my rotary. I don't have to tape up as much on the car, and I don't have to be as careful around edges. Additionally, I don't have to polish until the compound / polish breaks down (since these are non diminishing abraisives)...I just "look through" the polish, and stop when the defects are removed.



Another thing I have found when using the PC to remove heavy defects is that I can often achieve in 2 steps with the PC, what would have taken me 3 in the past with the rotary. For instance, I recently polished a heavily swirled vehicle. I used M105, KBM, PC, and a 5.5" LC Orange pad. I followed up with the PC, KBM, a Light Polishing Pad, and M86 (another non diminishing abraisive), and had an unbelieveable finish.



Don't get me wrong, I still use my rotary for jobs such as full wetsands on fresh paint jobs...and there are some paints that only respond to rotary correction.



The point I am trying to make here is that it is hard to make a blanket statement that a guy who uses a PC is not as skilled as a guy that uses a rotary, and is spending unneccesary time on a detail. Like everything else in detailing, it all comes down to the type of paint, defects at hand, techniques, and the skill/experience of the user.

I pretty much agree with David, but I can level down wetsanding marks or heavy defects with a PC using surbuf pads/M105 on the PC.



After using a rotary for 3 years, I have not picked it up since Dec of 08 doing many corrections with the PC.



Here is a recent extreme correction done with the PC.

 

[Scottwax]

I guess it all depends on the user. Personally when using the new non diminishing abraisives and a PC (the KBM), I can often achieve as much correction, in less time than when using my rotary. I don't have to tape up as much on the car, and I don't have to be as careful around edges. Additionally, I don't have to polish until the compound / polish breaks down (since these are non diminishing abraisives)...I just "look through" the polish, and stop when the defects are removed.

Still not sure how the KB method makes that much of a difference because the full write-up isn't out as far as I know. I will say that I have never been able to get the same correction with the G110 and #105 vs Dewalt 849 and #105. :nixweiss

 

[Envious Eric]

defect removal is much faster with the rotary, but finishing down with the PCXP is self assuring..

 

[gmblack3]

defect removal is much faster with the rotary, but finishing down with the PCXP is self assuring..

With a rotary you are going to need 2 steps before you can get to a final polish, using the KBM with an orange or surbuf pad, you can follow with your final polish.

 

[Envious Eric]

yeah, I had to handle a scratch on a lexus...PC/105 worked, but really slow needing a few hits. i decided to do the other half of it with a rotary and it was gone in 20 seconds via pfw and 105 (I only use wool on the rotary). then followed up with SIP and a orange pad, then FPII on a white pad and it was good as new!

 

[gmblack3]

yeah, I had to handle a scratch on a lexus...PC/105 worked, but really slow needing a few hits. i decided to do the other half of it with a rotary and it was gone in 20 seconds via pfw and 105 (I only use wool on the rotary). then followed up with SIP and a orange pad, then FPII on a white pad and it was good as new!

You can also try a 4" orange pad with M105/PC for spot polishing after wetsanding or scratch removal. Prime the entire face of the 4" pad, a few drops and apply some pressure.

 

[JohnKleven]

I guess it all depends on the user. Personally when using the new non diminishing abraisives and a PC (the KBM), I can often achieve as much correction, in less time than when using my rotary. I don't have to tape up as much on the car, and I don't have to be as careful around edges. Additionally, I don't have to polish until the compound / polish breaks down (since these are non diminishing abraisives)...I just "look through" the polish, and stop when the defects are removed.



Another thing I have found when using the PC to remove heavy defects is that I can often achieve in 2 steps with the PC, what would have taken me 3 in the past with the rotary. For instance, I recently polished a heavily swirled vehicle. I used M105, KBM, PC, and a 5.5" LC Orange pad. I followed up with the PC, KBM, a Light Polishing Pad, and M86 (another non diminishing abraisive), and had an unbelieveable finish.



Don't get me wrong, I still use my rotary for jobs such as full wetsands on fresh paint jobs...and there are some paints that only respond to rotary correction.



The point I am trying to make here is that it is hard to make a blanket statement that a guy who uses a PC is not as skilled as a guy that uses a rotary, and is spending unneccesary time on a detail. Like everything else in detailing, it all comes down to the type of paint, defects at hand, techniques, and the skill/experience of the user.

I disagree, especially if you're using a PC. That thing barely has enough power to apply wax. I honestly can't think of ANY time when a PC is faster than a rotary polisher. If you would have said FLEX, or Cyclo, then maybe on certain applications, but that PC is a POS.





John

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

I disagree, especially if you're using a PC. That thing barely has enough power to apply wax. I honestly can't think of ANY time when a PC is faster than a rotary polisher. If you would have said FLEX, or Cyclo, then maybe on certain applications, but that PC is a POS.





John

It's a shame you are not located close to me...I'd show you in person.

 

[gmblack3]

I disagree, especially if you're using a PC. That thing barely has enough power to apply wax. I honestly can't think of ANY time when a PC is faster than a rotary polisher. If you would have said FLEX, or Cyclo, then maybe on certain applications, but that PC is a POS.



John

Sorry but your post reeks of ignorance. :sadwavey:

 

[David Fermani]

Exactly... Don't get me wrong, they have their place in the detailing world. If a professional detailer really wants to spend 20 hours with a D.A. in the hands for a few hundred bucks, then have at it. D.A.'s are for home users, and for some finishing work, but better and faster results can be achieved with a real polisher.



John

I disagree, especially if you're using a PC. That thing barely has enough power to apply wax. I honestly can't think of ANY time when a PC is faster than a rotary polisher. If you would have said FLEX, or Cyclo, then maybe on certain applications, but that PC is a POS.





John

This is kind of an ignorant reply John. You either don’t have the slightest clue what you’re doing with a PC or you’ve never devoted any time to learning. That, and you’re obviously belittling/doubting the integrity of well known Pros like GMblack / RyDawg / RickRack / Kevin Brown / Todd Helme / Weekend Warrior / Presidential Detail…ETC… and equating their results as fallacies. Either way, you’re coming off like an old schooler that’s totally resistant to learning new processes. I’ll admit I was too at 1st until I spoke to people protesting career changing results with it. So much so that many of these people who have been billing customers per hour for years are now pricing their work out by the job. They claim that if they didn’t their income would be cut by almost ½ due to less time needing to be spent obtaining the final outcome.

I remember spending nearly 10 hours on a black S55 using a UDM that would now take about half that time with a rotary and the paint looks noticeably better. I can charge the same or even a bit more, end up making a lot more an hour and getting better results.



My DA buffer is great for one polishing step jobs where the customer is paying for shiny paint but isn't interested in any serious correction. Both buffers have their roles.

So, are you saying that you haven’t been doing “serious corrections� prior to your recent swap over to a rotary? All those Click N Brags were a hoax? :grinno:

Still not sure how the KB method makes that much of a difference because the full write-up isn't out as far as I know. I will say that I have never been able to get the same correction with the G110 and #105 vs Dewalt 849 and #105. :nixweiss

A black SL55 with Ceramic paint will more than likely need at least a 2 step correction via a rotary. How you can do that in 5 hours w/o leaving trails and doing any kind of moderate level of correction is amazing? Maybe that’s why the results vary.

There’s definitely a learning curve with the KBM. Process it key. When you stray from it, quality results will not be achieved. Have you followed any of the instructions already posted?



*Disclaimer* I’m not implying that the KBM is the end all/be all of paint correction. It may not apply to certain situations. BUT, the thing that stands out is the FACT that buffer trails and multiple alcohol wipe downs for defect detection is a thing of the past. That, coupled with its effective cutting power is enough value for me to make it my go-to. I’ve used it on the last 5 cars I’ve done and can honestly say that it made a night and day difference in time and result$.

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

"A black SL55 with Ceramic paint will more than likely need at least a 2 step correction via a rotary. How you can do that in 5 hours w/o leaving trails and doing any kind of moderate level of correction is amazing? Maybe that’s why the results vary.

There’s definitely a learning curve with the KBM. Process it key. When you stray from it, quality results will not be achieved. Have you followed any of the instructions already posted?" David Fermani



You are correct with this analysis. In May of 2008, Kevin Brown sent me an email about using M105 with the PC, based off of a question I posted on another site. His email is what is now known as the KBM. That particular day, I had a red C5 Vette scheduled. These are known for having harder clears. I was very skeptical of his email, but figured, what the heck, I'll try it. I was getting correction on that Vette with the lowly PC. As a matter of fact, I was able to REMOVE swirls with an 5.5" LC low profile pad, the PC, speed 6, and M105 following Kevin's instructions to the letter. I was amazed. Keep in mind the previous C5 I had done for this client I used the rotary, and 3 polishing steps.



Well, in September of last year, I had a client call me with a white ceramiclear SL. I decided to play around with the KBM. I tried with my PC, as well as the Flex, and I couldn't get satisfactory results, so out came the rotary. This is a car where there was no chance in he!! that PC was going to correct it.



Just my $.02.

 

[Scottwax]

So, are you saying that you haven’t been doing “serious corrections” prior to your recent swap over to a rotary? All those Click N Brags were a hoax? :grinno:

I haven't been able to correct to the level I can now, but that doesn't mean the cars I've done with the UDM/Cyclo taking out moderate defects looked bad. Just that last 5-10% improvement took a rotary to achieve.



I also don't believe I ever claimed I was doing full corrections with the PC/UDM/Cyclo, nor was I charging customers for full corrections.

A black SL55 with Ceramic paint will more than likely need at least a 2 step correction via a rotary. How you can do that in 5 hours w/o leaving trails and doing any kind of moderate level of correction is amazing? Maybe that’s why the results vary.

90-120 minutes with #105, 90 with #205 and 45 with Ultrafina does a pretty good job removing swirls without leaving trails. Obviously if you are shooting for as close to perfection as possible you'd spend more time with #105 and maybe do some wetsanding too. However, I find that #205 does a really good job cutting out anything #105 leaves behind without leaving anything more than minimal trails. I am seeing cars I've done using #105/205 and UF several months ago and not one has buffer trails anywhere on the car. I didn't even follow with the PC on my own car even though if I do leave anything behind it might be weeks before I can get to it.



I do believe polishing in the full sun helps, heats the metal under the paint so the paint itself is as fully expanded as it is going to get which seems to make removing defects easier. I definitely notice a difference in the winter or when working out of the sun. Plus, working in the sun makes it very easy to check for holograms and the sun does a good job baking out polishing oils. Try using #83 (if you have some) and check the work in the sun and then 5 minutes later. Can be pretty scary.

There’s definitely a learning curve with the KBM. Process it key. When you stray from it, quality results will not be achieved. Have you followed any of the instructions already posted?

I believe I am properly following what I do know about the method-fully prime the pad, slow passes under heavy pressure, spritz with water as the polish begins to dry. So far, it seems more time consuming than using a rotary. Not only that, but I've already gone through 3 G110s without using the heavy pressure the KB method seems to require. Do you think this method may have an impact on how long DA polishers last?



Also, to be quite honest, I like using the rotary. So smooth compared to a DA buffer.

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

I haven't been able to correct to the level I can now, but that doesn't mean the cars I've done with the UDM/Cyclo taking out moderate defects looked bad. Just that last 5-10% improvement took a rotary to achieve.









90-120 minutes with #105, 90 with #205 and 45 with Ultrafina does a pretty good job removing swirls without leaving trails. Obviously if you are shooting for as close to perfection as possible you'd spend more time with #105 and maybe do some wetsanding too. However, I find that #205 does a really good job cutting out anything #105 leaves behind without leaving anything more than minimal trails. I am seeing cars I've done using #105/205 and UF several months ago and not one has buffer trails anywhere on the car. I didn't even follow with the PC on my own car even though if I do leave anything behind it might be weeks before I can get to it.



I do believe polishing in the full sun helps, heats the metal under the paint so the paint itself is as fully expanded as it is going to get which seems to make removing defects easier. I definitely notice a difference in the winter or when working out of the sun. Plus, working in the sun makes it very easy to check for holograms and the sun does a good job baking out polishing oils. Try using #83 (if you have some) and check the work in the sun and then 5 minutes later. Can be pretty scary.









I believe I am properly following what I do know about the method-fully prime the pad, slow passes under heavy pressure, spritz with water as the polish begins to dry. So far, it seems more time consuming than using a rotary. Not only that, but I've already gone through 3 G110s without using the heavy pressure the KB method seems to require. Do you think this method may have an impact on how long DA polishers last?



Also, to be quite honest, I like using the rotary. So smooth compared to a DA buffer.

You are slightly off in your KBM process. You don't ever introduce water into the method when using foam. This can cause clumping of the non diminishing abraisives, and creates a scenario similar to if you were trying to wetsand with some 1000, some 1500, and some 2000 grit particles all on the same sheet of sand paper. Therefore, you can often create swirls, instead of removing them.



The only time you introduce spritzes of water is when using the Surbuf pads with the fingers.

 

[imported_Jakerooni]

I love interesting threads like this..... LOL

 

[Barry Theal]

wow I can't beleive how many people use m105/m205 combos? that is crazy.

 

[Scottwax]

You are slightly off in your KBM process. You don't ever introduce water into the method when using foam. This can cause clumping of the non diminishing abraisives, and creates a scenario similar to if you were trying to wetsand with some 1000, some 1500, and some 2000 grit particles all on the same sheet of sand paper. Therefore, you can often create swirls, instead of removing them.



The only time you introduce spritzes of water is when using the Surbuf pads with the fingers.

I've tried it with a rotary and it seems to work well (gave me some additional buffing time), didn't notice any problems when doing it with the G110 either. Like I said, I don't believe the method has been fully written out so I am going by what I have seen other mention. Once the instructions are finalized, I'll have to see how well it works for me. Probably have to get a different DA, not sure the G110 will hold up to heavy pressure and being kept on 6.



Biggest problem is the vibration of DA buffers vs the rotary. All else being equal, I'd use the rotary for corrections simply because it is so smooth in comparison.

 

[David Fermani]

wow I can't beleive how many people use m105/m205 combos? that is crazy.

Have you ever taken a stab at it Barry? How about you Jake?

 

[imported_Jakerooni]

I personally love the 105/205 combo Dave.. Probably one of the best out on the market right now. which reminds me I need to put an order in for more 105 here soon.

 

[Scottwax]

wow I can't beleive how many people use m105/m205 combos? that is crazy.

They flat work. Simple as that. Right now, IMO, they are the polishes to beat...and I believe a lot of companies are now working to see what they can come up with. Imagine how good the polish/compound that is better will be!

 

[David Fermani]

I personally love the 105/205 combo Dave.. Probably one of the best out on the market right now. which reminds me I need to put an order in for more 105 here soon.

You replied faster that I could edit. :har: Ever try them with a DA polisher?