Do you think wax adds shine?

jvs1991 said:
No I don't but when bird bombs still etch through, water spots still prevail, scratches and swirls still happen, what exactly is left to protect from?


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This isn't a bad point, and one that should be repeated!

Does wax/sealant/coating offer protection?
Yes. We know, at the very least, that something is left behind. We can see a change in shine and a change in water beading.

How much protection does a wax/sealant/coating offer?
Since we know something is there, and something is adding some layer of protection, this is the next question. The answer is that is really depends on the product, the environment and the paint.

However, it should be noted that the single best protective layer for your color coat is the clear coat paint on top. Paint is engineered, catalyzed and cross-linked, not to mention thick! Anything that can permanently damage paint is going to eat through whatever wax/sealant/coating you have.

Coatings offer the most protection, sealants offer the second most, and waxes usually the least (although waxes do have excellent UV absorption characteristics).

Proper maintenance and cleaning are always going to be components of any successful car care routine.

Yes you may still get etchings, water spots, scratches and swirls, but the deciding factor is how much worse would they be without the protectant. Waxes, sealants and coatings by you more time, in some cases considerably more time, but everything has its limits.
 
jvs1991 said:
I have auto finesse power deal on my Prius and after a month the bottom half of the doors retained no slickness or beading. Perhaps bc of the harsh snow in New York so far? But seriously when you can still get water spots, swirls, bird bomb etchings etc then how much is it really protecting?


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I have DG501/601 on both my DD's and top with D156 after every wash. I clean bird poop as soon as I see it and it comes right off. My cars do not have any etching, no water spots and light swirls.

Notice you said Prius, I have had a few Toys and maintain a couple in the family and find the paint to be very soft and easily susceptible to damage. Can't comment on AF but might want to try DG or Collonite. I like Sonax Polymer Net Shield too. Btw I live in NYC too.


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Meticulous said:
I have DG501/601 on both my DD's and top with D156 after every wash. I clean bird poop as soon as I see it and it comes right off. My cars do not have any etching, no water spots and light swirls.

Notice you said Prius, I have had a few Toys and maintain a couple in the family and find the paint to be very soft and easily susceptible to damage. Can't comment on AF but might want to try DG or Collonite. I like Sonax Polymer Net Shield too. Btw I live in NYC too.


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I don't disagree Toyota paint isn't the greatest but I also have a 13 ford focus, and then an 02 explorer that's my brothers and my mom has an 05 freestyle. I have had the cars swirl free before (sans Prius bc it is a lease) and after time no matter how careful I was all of the above reoccurred. By swirls I mean very light wash induced swirls. I try to clean bird crap off ASAP but when in at work or school not always practical.

The point I'm trying to make is, yes there is protection to a degree, but if it's that easy to reswirl, etch through, and get water spots in the paint really how well is any wax or sealant protecting.

I'm not trying to start an argument it's just how I've began to think about the topic lately. I respect others opinions on te matter and will agree to disagree. Just wanted to throw my view point out there

Where in NYC are you located btw?

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Todd Helme said:
This isn't a bad point, and one that should be repeated!



Does wax/sealant/coating offer protection?

Yes. We know, at the very least, that something is left behind. We can see a change in shine and a change in water beading.



How much protection does a wax/sealant/coating offer?

Since we know something is there, and something is adding some layer of protection, this is the next question. The answer is that is really depends on the product, the environment and the paint.



However, it should be noted that the single best protective layer for your color coat is the clear coat paint on top. Paint is engineered, catalyzed and cross-linked, not to mention thick! Anything that can permanently damage paint is going to eat through whatever wax/sealant/coating you have.



Coatings offer the most protection, sealants offer the second most, and waxes usually the least (although waxes do have excellent UV absorption characteristics).



Proper maintenance and cleaning are always going to be components of any successful car care routine.



Yes you may still get etchings, water spots, scratches and swirls, but the deciding factor is how much worse would they be without the protectant. Waxes, sealants and coatings by you more time, in some cases considerably more time, but everything has its limits.
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Thanks for the reply Todd. I think you pretty much said exactly what I was thinking but I was just not able to word it as well.

I do not doubt there is some protection left but like you said anything harmful to the paint will eat through the protection layer. At the end of the day I personally don't look at longevity of a wax as a selling point. I enjoy applying a fresh coat and enjoying the looks for a week or so.

Also there really is no concrete way to determine what if any wax is left behind after x amount of time. Beading is a bad way to gauge that. Dirty paint will not bead regardless but clean polished unwaxed paint will, I've seen it. I know this is one of those age old debates where no one will ever agree but it's nice to debate these topics and get different peoples thoughts on the matter.


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it alters the appearance yes i agree there. i had some that give a wet look, some a candy look, and some just shiny.
I also agree with meticulous that sometimes the car looks better after the wash and the LSP sometimes mutes the gloss or in a way degrades the look of the car
But I dont care im still going to buy my nubas and collect them regardless
 
jvs1991 said:
I don't disagree Toyota paint isn't the greatest but I also have a 13 ford focus, and then an 02 explorer that's my brothers and my mom has an 05 freestyle. I have had the cars swirl free before (sans Prius bc it is a lease) and after time no matter how careful I was all of the above reoccurred. By swirls I mean very light wash induced swirls. I try to clean bird crap off ASAP but when in at work or school not always practical.

The point I'm trying to make is, yes there is protection to a degree, but if it's that easy to reswirl, etch through, and get water spots in the paint really how well is any wax or sealant protecting.

I'm not trying to start an argument it's just how I've began to think about the topic lately. I respect others opinions on te matter and will agree to disagree. Just wanted to throw my view point out there

Where in NYC are you located btw?

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Staten Island
 
The age old question whether a wax adds shine is a frankly a misleading question. Why?

1) anything you do to neglected paint will make it shine (versus doing nothing ) including just washing it, polishing it, waxing it or for that matter splashing WD-40 on it or driving it in the rain.

2) the question really should be: "does waxing after polishing add shine?"

Ask any wax chemist if they design a wax to give the paint a certain signature "look". The odds are pretty good they would all answer yes.

So going back to the question of whether wax adds shine after polishing ?

It depends on the wax formulation.




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a picture is worth a thousand words


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2 pictures are worth at least 2000 words
 
I think some LSP's can literally darken the paint with oils or whatever, but the shine/gloss/depth comes from light being reflected in different ways. JMO.


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Well that's junkman's opinion. Take that for what it's worth. To me it's worth nothing. Just my opinion tho!


I agree with Todd.
 
Todd Helme said:
Well everybody has an opinion. I believe he is the same guy who believes that using a duster is safer than a waterless wash as well.

I believe the Junkman showed how to correctly use a duster to safely remove as much dust as possible off the car before using waterless wash or a quick detailer. The exact situation the Junkman was talking about was not a conventional waterless wash, it was more like removing light dust and finger prints at a car show.

I also believe the Junkman has stated that if his car is dirtier than that he will only do a two bucket wash to clean his car.
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In my humble opinion.

The root question is what exactly is the Junkman's definition of "shine"
If you look at what the Junkman is saying and why he is saying it. He makes some good points. Whether you agree with him or not.

In my opinion if wax only adds a negligible bit of "shine" isn't it basically negligible?

Also if you are teaching people and also trying to drive home the point that compounding and polishing is the best way to achieve "shine" and that you can't just throw a coat wax on the car and get a good result. I understand why the Junkman made that statement and I am fine with it.

I would rather have people thinking that that compounding and polishing process produces the magic "shine". Instead of just a coat of wax, because if you don't do those steps correctly or thoroughly then what kind of "shine" will a coat of wax get you? Also it is a good motivator to convince people to compound and polish thoroughly and correctly.


I personally appreciate the people like Jason Rose, Kevin Brown, Corey Carruth, Gary Dean, Todd Helme, Mike Phillips, Larry Kinsella, The Junkman and all the other great people (to many forum members to list) that take the time to make detailing info and training more accessible.

I appreciate it enough that I am not going to take a statement about something subjective, and not really in context and beat them up about it.

If you think you can do better than any of these people then by all means start generating your own content at the rate they do right now. But don't get mad when someone questions your subjective ideas or takes a statement out of its proper context.

Or just say thanks for all the hard work and get over it. It's not like the Junkman is saying the world is flat. He is just taking about "shine".

 
Junkman says no waxes/sealants look different they all just add protection. How very very wrong he is. He is stubborn as well and thinks his way is the only way. I can tell you right now about 10 years of detailing, that Poorboys EX-P looks VERY VERY VERY different to say DoDo Juice wax. VERY different. Anyone who has used DoDo after polishing, knows what gloss/depth and reflection that stuff puts on a car....
 
wlshephard said:
In my opinion if wax only adds a negligible bit of "shine" isn't it basically negligible?
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And here is where I think the majority of us would disagree... You have to remember that most people who take the time to join a detailing forum, let alone post are, to put it bluntly, obsessed with gloss, shine, however you want to put it. To us, there is no such thing as a negligible amount of shine.

Now, so someone who is just upgrading from going through the local car wash where they advertise the $20 wash n wax special, maybe, in their untrained eye, wax doesn't add anything. It seems after reading your post that that is who this Junkman caters to (I have not seen any of his posts or videos and frankly probably never will, since I'm not looking at how to use a polisher or what is the difference between orange and white pads).

As to your statement that this is out of context: I don't know if that is correct. In fact, it was a private conversation between he and the OP, in which the OP stated that his central thesis was that LSPs don't add shine, gloss, whatever. There is not any context that needs to be put inserted. They disagreed over this singular statement, to which 90%+ of this forum disagree. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no one is arguing that. All we are saying is using a gloss meter, which unfortunately just about as scientific as we can get, there is an upswing in points post LSP.

Now, if you really want to get a firestorm, we can ask the forum if expensive waxes produce a better, or even more, shine than cheap waxes. That is a question that there may be real debate over, but this, at least judging by the posts in this thread, has been pretty well decided.

Happy detailing!
 
radarryan said:
All we are saying is using a gloss meter, which unfortunately just about as scientific as we can get, there is an upswing in points post LSP.
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I was saying if you try to put a measurement to it you are falling into the trap because someone will show in some experiment how some LSP's may reduce measured gloss.


Atrapitis.gif


The point is it is a opinion that most do not share and does not matter except maybe to the small minority that believe it too.
 
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