Surbuf or MF pads for Flex 3401?????

Time 2 shine

Time 2 shine

New member
If compounding on harder paint what would work better for the 3401? I remember reading a response in a thread that todd helme made saying the surbuf pads work better on Da's with a more orbital action, would that mean it would not work as well with the forced rotation of the flex? Im asking because i might be doing a correction on a black Cadillac CTS-V with lots of swirls and i only have the flex to work with. Ive repeatedly noticed the surbuf /105 combo used for this type of car.
 
I have heard that using MF pads on the Flex makes it grabby. You would be better off with Surbuf pads. Just be sure to follow up with a lighter polisher to remove the hazing they leave behind.
 
Zach,

What pads do you currently have or will have when you start this project ?

Is the paint really badly scratched and swirled, or both, or what ?

If you are using 105, that is already a pretty aggressive compound with any pad.

I personally, have never used the Surbuf pads with a Flex 3401VRG or my other Meguiars G110V2, so I cant help you with that part.

Dont forget, you want to use the least aggressive path first,and work up to more aggressive as needed.

Dan F
 
Use M105 and Surbuf pads to clean it up then use softer pads and M205 or what ever you want to use. That is what I used on my STS-V and we have the same Ceramic Clearcoat. But I used it with my 7424XP so I am not sure about the 3401.
 
Stokdgs said:
Zach,

What pads do you currently have or will have when you start this project ?

Is the paint really badly scratched and swirled, or both, or what ?

If you are using 105, that is already a pretty aggressive compound with any pad.

I personally, have never used the Surbuf pads with a Flex 3401VRG or my other Meguiars G110V2, so I cant help you with that part.

Dont forget, you want to use the least aggressive path first,and work up to more aggressive as needed.

Dan F
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I do start with the least aggressive and work my way up. I currently do not have the vehicle but when i looked it over it has tons of swirls and some deep scratches that will not be able to be fixed (unless its repainted)and i imagine some RIDS once the swirls are removed. I currently have PFW pads, LC flat yel, white and some ccs orange. I dont have to order anymore pads i just like to be prepared and like stated above i kept running across this surbuf/105 combo on these cars but they were always used with a PC or Griots.
 
rider9195 said:
I have heard that using MF pads on the Flex makes it grabby. You would be better off with Surbuf pads. Just be sure to follow up with a lighter polisher to remove the hazing they leave behind.
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I definitely plan on following the the 105 with 205 and maybe menz PO85, ill debate it when i get that far.
 
Just thinking, if the car has Ceramic Clear Coat ala Mercedes vehicles, wont the Menzerna compounds work good there too ? Believe one or more of them were developed specifically for dealing with Mercedes Ceramic Paint when it first came out, and they found out it took too long to compound it on the assembly line.

But if you dont have all of this product line, you should be fine - you have L/C PFW and that alone with Meguiars 105 will flat out knock stuff down.

The Menzerna PO85RD is a really great final polish with a cut of 1 out of 5, and a gloss of 5 out of 5, so even with your white pad or something softer, you should be able to really bring up the gloss if needed by the time you are at that stage.

Good luck with this ! :)
Dan F
 
Time 2 shine said:
If compounding on harder paint what would work better for the 3401? I remember reading a response in a thread that todd helme made saying the surbuf pads work better on Da's with a more orbital action, would that mean it would not work as well with the forced rotation of the flex? Im asking because i might be doing a correction on a black Cadillac CTS-V with lots of swirls and i only have the flex to work with. Ive repeatedly noticed the surbuf /105 combo used for this type of car.
Click to expand...

Either the MF or Surfbuff pad's will work 'well' on a Flex, as it is a Dual-Action (orbital/rotation) machine. However, you may get even better results by using a random orbital machine with either one of those pads. With out getting to crazy on technical terms, any each finger or microfiber is round like a tube. The orbital action exposes all 360 degrees of each strand to the paint. If those strands are loaded with abrasives you get a lot of surface area and a lot of cutting.

The faster the pad spins the more centrifugal force will pull the fibers/fingers outward and cause the pad to lay flat, which only exposes a small part of the fiber/finger to the paint and reduces the amount of abrasives working.

If you are trying to cut on a Flex I would give the Lake Country Purple Foamed Wool pad a shot. The Flex generates enough RPM (vs.OPM) to take advantage of the wool's characteristics, and the orbital motion will cause the wool to tumble slightly, which exposes more abrasives to the paint.
 
Stokdgs said:
Just thinking, if the car has Ceramic Clear Coat ala Mercedes vehicles, wont the Menzerna compounds work good there too ? Believe one or more of them were developed specifically for dealing with Mercedes Ceramic Paint when it first came out, and they found out it took too long to compound it on the assembly line.

But if you dont have all of this product line, you should be fine - you have L/C PFW and that alone with Meguiars 105 will flat out knock stuff down.

The Menzerna PO85RD is a really great final polish with a cut of 1 out of 5, and a gloss of 5 out of 5, so even with your white pad or something softer, you should be able to really bring up the gloss if needed by the time you are at that stage.

Good luck with this ! :)
Dan F
Click to expand...

After speaking with several paint reps from PPG I was assured that Mercedes Benz was the only company to receive the actual cerama-clear paint system. It is a thin (less than .5 mils) top coating on top of regular PPG clear coat. My understanding is that some Menzerna was developed to use on 'fresh' ceramic clear. Once it is cured it is just like any hard paint and really any scratch resistant polish will work equally as well.
 
Todd Helme said:
After speaking with several paint reps from PPG I was assured that Mercedes Benz was the only company to receive the actual cerama-clear paint system. It is a thin (less than .5 mils) top coating on top of regular PPG clear coat. My understanding is that some Menzerna was developed to use on 'fresh' ceramic clear. Once it is cured it is just like any hard paint and really any scratch resistant polish will work equally as well.
Click to expand...

Dr. G also mentioned that once that top layer is polished off the paint will be noticeably softer too. ;)
 
Todd Helme said:
Either the MF or Surfbuff pad's will work 'well' on a Flex, as it is a Dual-Action (orbital/rotation) machine. However, you may get even better results by using a random orbital machine with either one of those pads. With out getting to crazy on technical terms, any each finger or microfiber is round like a tube. The orbital action exposes all 360 degrees of each strand to the paint. If those strands are loaded with abrasives you get a lot of surface area and a lot of cutting.

The faster the pad spins the more centrifugal force will pull the fibers/fingers outward and cause the pad to lay flat, which only exposes a small part of the fiber/finger to the paint and reduces the amount of abrasives working.

If you are trying to cut on a Flex I would give the Lake Country Purple Foamed Wool pad a shot. The Flex generates enough RPM (vs.OPM) to take advantage of the wool's characteristics, and the orbital motion will cause the wool to tumble slightly, which exposes more abrasives to the paint.
Click to expand...

Thanks.....Great info as always todd.
 
Stokdgs said:
Just thinking, if the car has Ceramic Clear Coat ala Mercedes vehicles, wont the Menzerna compounds work good there too ? Believe one or more of them were developed specifically for dealing with Mercedes Ceramic Paint when it first came out, and they found out it took too long to compound it on the assembly line.

But if you dont have all of this product line, you should be fine - you have L/C PFW and that alone with Meguiars 105 will flat out knock stuff down.

The Menzerna PO85RD is a really great final polish with a cut of 1 out of 5, and a gloss of 5 out of 5, so even with your white pad or something softer, you should be able to really bring up the gloss if needed by the time you are at that stage.

Good luck with this ! :)
Dan F
Click to expand...

I do only have the 85rd but will be trying more from menz in the future. I used the PFW/105 on my last correction so i am familiar with using it. Thanks again for the replies.
 
NEITHER. The both suck with the 3401, with the MF pads being worse of the two. You'll get way better results with these pads in combination with a traditional DA. Just my opinion.
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
NEITHER. The both suck with the 3401, with the MF pads being worse of the two. You'll get way better results with these pads in combination with a traditional DA. Just my opinion.
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What problems did you encounter with both setups or should i say what did you not like about them?

Do you really not want your 3401 anymore? if so why? sorry just curious...
 
Time 2 shine said:
What problems did you encounter with both setups or should i say what did you not like about them?

Do you really not want your 3401 anymore? if so why? sorry just curious...
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The forced rotation doesn't work well with these specific pads. With the MF pads, they're very grabby when compounding. They also "bald" in the middle. Not a smooth polishing experience at all. With the Surbuf pads, they're smoother with the 3401 compared to the MF pads, but I still get better cut when using them with a traditional DA. I cannot get the cut/leveling ability with any foam pad and the 3401 compared to using the MF/Surbuf pads with a traditional DA. Most of the cars I work on are daily drivers that are heavily swirled, and with these two pads, the traditional DA outperforms anything I've ever used with the 3401. Plus, with a traditional DA, I don't have to fight the damn polisher like with the 3401. With the newer technology pads and polishes, I feel the traditional DA has surpassed the 3401.
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
The forced rotation doesn't work well with these specific pads. With the MF pads, they're very grabby when compounding. They also "bald" in the middle. Not a smooth polishing experience at all. With the Surbuf pads, they're smoother with the 3401 compared to the MF pads, but I still get better cut when using them with a traditional DA. I cannot get the cut/leveling ability with any foam pad and the 3401 compared to using the MF/Surbuf pads with a traditional DA. Most of the cars I work on are daily drivers that are heavily swirled, and with these two pads, the traditional DA outperforms anything I've ever used with the 3401. Plus, with a traditional DA, I don't have to fight the damn polisher like with the 3401. With the newer technology pads and polishes, I feel the traditional DA has surpassed the 3401.
Click to expand...


I can see where your coming from with the 3401. Now just a little FYI, im new to machine compounding/polishing and have only done two corrections to date, an 07 camry and 08 tacoma. Both your typical daily drivers and even with the LC PFW/105 combo on the 3401 with multiple passed and different approaches I still could not get the cut i needed. I know i have a lot to learn yet and haven't put in enough machine time but i was a little disappointed. Don't get me wrong they both turned out pretty good, but they could have been better. Now im not saying its not a good machine I just haven't found the right technique/combo to get what i want. I just chalk it up as a learning process.
 
Time 2 shine said:
I can see where your coming from with the 3401. Now just a little FYI, im new to machine compounding/polishing and have only done two corrections to date, an 07 camry and 08 tacoma. Both your typical daily drivers and even with the LC PFW/105 combo on the 3401 with multiple passed and different approaches I still could not get the cut i needed. I know i have a lot to learn yet and haven't put in enough machine time but i was a little disappointed. Don't get me wrong they both turned out pretty good, but they could have been better. Now im not saying its not a good machine I just haven't found the right technique/combo to get what i want. I just chalk it up as a learning process.
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There's not a huge learning curve with the 3401, if you can keep the pad flat and control the machine, you're gonna get the most out of it that you can. I feel a PC has a greater learning curve then the 3401. I've never been fully satisfied with heavy correction from the 3401. Before the MF/Surbuf pads combined with a traditional DA, the Flex 3401 did have more correction power, but now that's not the case, IMO. Also, I don't feel the 3401 finishes as well as a traditional DA. You're not forcing the edges of the pad into the paint with a traditional DA. For leveling, that's better, but not for finishing. The 3401 is NOT the king like it was for a while. Try the MF pads with a g110v2 or a Griot's DA, you'll understand where I'm coming from. :)
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
There's not a huge learning curve with the 3401, if you can keep the pad flat and control the machine, you're gonna get the most out of it that you can. I feel a PC has a greater learning curve then the 3401. I've never been fully satisfied with heavy correction from the 3401. Before the MF/Surbuf pads combined with a traditional DA, the Flex 3401 did have more correction power, but now that's not the case, IMO. Also, I don't feel the 3401 finishes as well as a traditional DA. You're not forcing the edges of the pad into the paint with a traditional DA. For leveling, that's better, but not for finishing. The 3401 is NOT the king like it was for a while. Try the MF pads with a g110v2 or a Griot's DA, you'll understand where I'm coming from. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks man, i appreciate all the feedback.
 
I have gotten excellent results using surbuff pads with the flex 3401. Do I use them to finish? No. :rofl

Do they excel at a swirl remover step? yes they do and then I use my HT pads to finish just as I would if I had used any other combination of machine and correction pad...

Lately I've been using my rotary a lot but did get great cutting results with Surbuf on 3401.
 
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