More of an esoteric question

bob m

bob m

New member
Bit of play on words, but I have a question, sparked by videos from Todd C from Esoteric Car Care. On COATED cars, he advises using a coating topper as a maintenance product - Overcoat, Polish Angel, Cure etc, but strongly advises to stay away from using quick detailers, shampoos with gloss enhancers/waxes, spray waxes, paste waxes for maintenance. Essentially, he says that you are obscuring/limiting the benefits of the coating and replacing it with a lessor product.

Thoughts?
 
He has a point. Another point of view is the maintenance topper is also going to induce its own behavior. It is just closer to the coating then any of those other products you mentioned.
 
The Guz said:
He has a point. Another point of view is the maintenance topper is also going to induce its own behavior. It is just closer to the coating then any of those other products you mentioned.
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Hey Mike,

Sorry, not sure I understand it "being closer to the coating". Whatever topper you put on is going to be, well...on top/closer to the coating. His point is that you are applying a "lesser" topping using anything else but a topper made for coatings.
 
A dedicated "maintenance topper" whether it is a dedicated coating spray sealant or dedicated coating quick detailer is closer to the coating in terms of performance and chemistry. It will also change the behavior of the base layer coating as it is leaving its own layer of protection. It will just be closer in terms of performance compared to the other products listed there.
 
The Guz said:
A dedicated "maintenance topper" whether it is a dedicated coating spray sealant or dedicated coating quick detailer is closer to the coating in terms of performance and chemistry. It will also change the behavior of the base layer coating as it is leaving its own layer of protection. It will just be closer in terms of performance compared to the other products listed there.
Click to expand...

Also, I think with some of the specific maintenance products like Cure and Elixr they supposedly have some of the same ingredients as their coating to ensure it improves/preserves the qualities of the base coating. This goes for some of the dedicated QD sprays like Ech2O and others specifically designed for coating use. They tend to be formulated to either leave nothing behind or just a smidge of like/complementary ingredients which won`t change/harm the coating.

You bury the coating under some other form of topper and you`ve taken the coating`s characteristics out of play until topper product wears off.

It`s this reason I have a love/hate relationship with even maintenance products on my coated cars. I apply coatings because I like the attributes they offer and I don`t want to alter that. I`ve been very happy running my coatings "naked", but will freely admit when I used Cure on top of CanCoat it was pretty special. However, even then Cure is a maintenance product designed specifically to not harm Gyeon coatings. In every day life I find QD`s unavoidable and needed, so I go with Ech2O to ensure I "do no harm" to the coating.
 
bob m said:
Hey Mike,

Sorry, not sure I understand it "being closer to the coating". Whatever topper you put on is going to be, well...on top/closer to the coating. His point is that you are applying a "lesser" topping using anything else but a topper made for coatings.
Click to expand...
When Guz states “closer to the coating”, he doesn’t mean close as in right on top. He means “being more similar in qualities and behavior”.
 
What the Guz said... mind you.. I remain unconvinced that toppers actually adhere to the base ceramic for any reasonable amount of time and certainly less than applied standalone. It`s very difficult to test so no facts to base that on, just what I`ve began to observe...
 
bob m said:
Bit of play on words, but I have a question, sparked by videos from Todd C from Esoteric Car Care. On COATED cars, he advises using a coating topper as a maintenance product - Overcoat, Polish Angel, Cure etc, but strongly advises to stay away from using quick detailers, shampoos with gloss enhancers/waxes, spray waxes, paste waxes for maintenance. Essentially, he says that you are obscuring/limiting the benefits of the coating and replacing it with a lessor product.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I think the above is kinda a multi-faceted question, the first being their philosophy regarding the use of any Quick Detailer for light cleanup and the second being topping coatings with `non coating-synergistic` products like traditional waxes, sealants and shampoos with polymer gloss enhancers.

In the first case they seem to eschew the use of any Quick Detailers (both ceramic and polymer-infused) for light cleanup due to possible marring of the surface. Kinda a "Live with the light dust/dirt until full bucket wash is possible" approach, akin to many opinions regarding light cleanup using a California Car Duster.

The second scenario is the generally accepted philosophy that putting a non-ceramic on top of a coating masks the benefits of the coating with regards to water behavior and such. There`s some folks over in the Corvette World that just adore Beadmaker so they use that stuff on top of their coatings...and then note that the beading, sheeting has diminished and dust attraction has increased vs the coating alone or the coating with a ceramic-infused maintenance product.

As far as using toppers/boosters, dunno, but perhaps…

1. The elements that provide the durability and chemical/environmental protection of a base coating do not provide/are not compatible with the more entertaining aspects folks associate with a ‘good’ LSP.

Things like slickness, exciting water behavior, beading, added gloss. In other words, the base coating provides the functional aspects, the booster the aesthetic aspects. Gyeon Mohs, Gtechniq CSL for example are some pretty tough customers but the visible water behavior is visually not that entertaining, hence the Skin topcoat in the Mohs-based Syncro kit and the ‘preferred’ CSL +EXOV4 application combo.

On their own, Mohs and CSL are more hydrophillic as opposed to hydrophobic and that’s just not as visually entertaining as when topped with a more hydrophobic top layer. While Skin and EXO are ‘kinda coatings’ like CarPro Gliss, Feynlab Topcoat and TAC Topcoat, the concept of topping a coating via dedicated ‘topcoat’ or booster is, to me, kinda the same. The base coating, for whatever reason, can’t encompass all characteristics people recognize as ‘quality’ behavior of an LSP.

2. Sacrificial layer or protecting the protection. Better to contaminate a top layer than the more expensive base coating.

3. Revenue generation. More products needed to maintain the base coating benefits, real or perceived. “You spent all this money on getting it coated, what’s a little bit more?” Kinda akin to changing oil every 3500 miles instead of following mfg recommendations of up to 10k intervals. Better safe than sorry?

4. Just following directions. Most mfgs reccomend some kinda maintenance topper, necessity of it being irrelevant. Again, better safe than sorry?

There’s plenty of well-respected coating aficionados who coat and let it ride…with excellent results so topping is definitely not necessary in all cases. May as well throw ‘personal preference’ on the list as well.

I know that sometimes after washing, i just wanna spray something on the car and as long as it is synergistic (and easy) it`s just plain entertaining and maybe also alters the appearance somewhat. Wife is convinced that after washing, using Overcoat followed by PA Cosmic or High Gloss 12hrs later makes it pop more than using 1 or the other; dunno if i see it but since it entertains her and doesn`t hurt or diminish the performance of the coating by itself, may as well have some fun, no?

Maybe toppers/booster are kinda like using a foam cannon on a well kept car:

1. Even if it doesn`t help much, it can`t hurt
2. It`s easy
3. It`s fun
 
So i coated my car and a friends car within months of each other. Both CqUk3, mine got a layer of Cancoat.

He supposedly hand washed, rinseless’d (N-914) and used touchless washes. Me the same.

I used a toppers. ALOT.... he did reload every 6 months. At 1.6 months his looked like it needed to be redone and mine still looked fresh (80-90%) beading.

I just topped mine w/ another layer of CC and we planned to recoat till he decided to sell.

Their coulda been alot of variables but I promise topping didn’t hurt and probably helped my situation.

I personally use toppers alot as i see a visual difference when I do.... could be in my head but you what they say...... perception is reality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Coatings=crack said:
So i coated my car and a friends car within months of each other. Both CqUk3, mine got a layer of Cancoat.

He supposedly hand washed, rinseless’d (N-914) and used touchless washes. Me the same.

I used a toppers. ALOT.... he did reload every 6 months. At 1.6 months his looked like it needed to be redone and mine still looked fresh (80-90%) beading.

I just topped mine w/ another layer of CC and we planned to recoat till he decided to sell.

Their coulda been alot of variables but I promise topping didn’t hurt and probably helped my situation.

I personally use toppers alot as i see a visual difference when I do.... could be in my head but you what they say...... perception is reality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I don`t know if I`d consider CanCoat a topper since it`s a stand alone coating-lite which happens to be work really well at topper duty.

In your scenario, I`m not surprised you didn`t think you car looked better. From my experience, CanCoat looked better than CQuartz UK on it`s own. Take CanCoat and top it with Cure and the results were magical. Also you`ve essentially put one coating on top of another I`d expect it to look better after 16 months. Your friends choice of Reload may have contributed to it as well. I`ve not heard much good about it, and it`s anything like Elixr, I didn`t find much to praise with it either beside putting down a layer of protection which was shockingly durable.

Your example is exactly why I tend to run my coatings naked. Cure worked out well with the CanCoat, but the CarPro products aren`t much to talk about. I also found the Blackfire Coating Booster to be a waste of time/money. These products are a real gamble and the safe bet IMO is to simply apply the coating and let it ride. Playing around with some form of topper would be fun, but not at the expense of the performance of the underlying coating.
 
BudgetPlan1 said:
I think the above is kinda a multi-faceted question, the first being their philosophy regarding the use of any Quick Detailer for light cleanup and the second being topping coatings with `non coating-synergistic` products like traditional waxes, sealants and shampoos with polymer gloss enhancers.

In the first case they seem to eschew the use of any Quick Detailers (both ceramic and polymer-infused) for light cleanup due to possible marring of the surface. Kinda a "Live with the light dust/dirt until full bucket wash is possible" approach, akin to many opinions regarding light cleanup using a California Car Duster.

The second scenario is the generally accepted philosophy that putting a non-ceramic on top of a coating masks the benefits of the coating with regards to water behavior and such. There`s some folks over in the Corvette World that just adore Beadmaker so they use that stuff on top of their coatings...and then note that the beading, sheeting has diminished and dust attraction has increased vs the coating alone or the coating with a ceramic-infused maintenance product.

As far as using toppers/boosters, dunno, but perhaps…

1. The elements that provide the durability and chemical/environmental protection of a base coating do not provide/are not compatible with the more entertaining aspects folks associate with a ‘good’ LSP.

Things like slickness, exciting water behavior, beading, added gloss. In other words, the base coating provides the functional aspects, the booster the aesthetic aspects. Gyeon Mohs, Gtechniq CSL for example are some pretty tough customers but the visible water behavior is visually not that entertaining, hence the Skin topcoat in the Mohs-based Syncro kit and the ‘preferred’ CSL +EXOV4 application combo.

On their own, Mohs and CSL are more hydrophillic as opposed to hydrophobic and that’s just not as visually entertaining as when topped with a more hydrophobic top layer. While Skin and EXO are ‘kinda coatings’ like CarPro Gliss, Feynlab Topcoat and TAC Topcoat, the concept of topping a coating via dedicated ‘topcoat’ or booster is, to me, kinda the same. The base coating, for whatever reason, can’t encompass all characteristics people recognize as ‘quality’ behavior of an LSP.

2. Sacrificial layer or protecting the protection. Better to contaminate a top layer than the more expensive base coating.

3. Revenue generation. More products needed to maintain the base coating benefits, real or perceived. “You spent all this money on getting it coated, what’s a little bit more?” Kinda akin to changing oil every 3500 miles instead of following mfg recommendations of up to 10k intervals. Better safe than sorry?

4. Just following directions. Most mfgs reccomend some kinda maintenance topper, necessity of it being irrelevant. Again, better safe than sorry?

There’s plenty of well-respected coating aficionados who coat and let it ride…with excellent results so topping is definitely not necessary in all cases. May as well throw ‘personal preference’ on the list as well.

I know that sometimes after washing, i just wanna spray something on the car and as long as it is synergistic (and easy) it`s just plain entertaining and maybe also alters the appearance somewhat. Wife is convinced that after washing, using Overcoat followed by PA Cosmic or High Gloss 12hrs later makes it pop more than using 1 or the other; dunno if i see it but since it entertains her and doesn`t hurt or diminish the performance of the coating by itself, may as well have some fun, no?

Maybe toppers/booster are kinda like using a foam cannon on a well kept car:

1. Even if it doesn`t help much, it can`t hurt
2. It`s easy
3. It`s fun
Click to expand...


Phew, there`s a lot there! I suppose - especially since Todd et all at Esoteric specialize in high end products and it seems high end cars, it would stand to reason that they would not want any lower end products placed on top of a very good coating - other than a good coating maintence product. On my last car after I did a Kami Zipang coating, I almost always stayed away from washing the cars with any shampoos that had gloss enhancers and very limited use of quick detailers. But to my untrained eyes, w/o using gloss meters or some other type of measuring device, I did not see any lessening of that coating`s "pop/shine" - not saying it didn`t happend though.

When I coat my 2021 Mazda, I will do pretty much what I did with my last car - apply a coating, use a proper coating topper, avoid washes - 2 bucket and rinseless (BTW GG`s Brilliant Rinseless Wash is incredible) with waxes/gloss enhancers and resist the urge to use/try every new product, including Si and Graphene enhanced products. But sometimes, resisting the urge not to use a quick detailer instead of bringing out the buckets may be a step beyond what I would be willing to commit to.
 
Desertnate said:
I don`t know if I`d consider CanCoat a topper since it`s a stand alone coating-lite which happens to be work really well at topper duty.

In your scenario, I`m not surprised you didn`t think you car looked better. From my experience, CanCoat looked better than CQuartz UK on it`s own. Take CanCoat and top it with Cure and the results were magical. Also you`ve essentially put one coating on top of another I`d expect it to look better after 16 months. Your friends choice of Reload may have contributed to it as well. I`ve not heard much good about it, and it`s anything like Elixr, I didn`t find much to praise with it either beside putting down a layer of protection which was shockingly durable.

Your example is exactly why I tend to run my coatings naked. Cure worked out well with the CanCoat, but the CarPro products aren`t much to talk about. I also found the Blackfire Coating Booster to be a waste of time/money. These products are a real gamble and the safe bet IMO is to simply apply the coating and let it ride. Playing around with some form of topper would be fun, but not at the expense of the performance of the underlying coating.
Click to expand...

I don’t recall saying it didn’t look better or worse being top with CC as i was talking performance. It did look good topped with CC.

Didn’t call can coat a topper said i topped my coating with it. Gyeon Pros do add CC pro on top of their pro coatings for maintenance to extend life of coating..... isn’t that the point of a topper?

Also my good experience with toppers and recommending them is why you don’t use toppers? Weird....

I guess as Accumulator put’s it....... “YMMV”


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Coatings=crack said:
I don’t recall saying it didn’t look better or worse being top with CC as i was talking performance. It did look good topped with CC.
Click to expand...

I think misunderstood you comment about the friends vehicle needing to be re-done and yours still looking good. I took that to be cosmetic vs other characteristics.

Didn’t call can coat a topper said i topped my coating with it. Gyeon Pros do add CC pro on top of their pro coatings for maintenance to extend life of coating..... isn’t that the point of a topper?
Click to expand...

It is. I think we`re reaching a point where it is really hard to define a "topper". Granted, it could be anything, but I guess I define them a products vendors specifically market as a topper like Cure or Reload. CanCoat is a great stand alone product which also just happens to be great on top of other coatings. Similar for many spray waxes/sealants people use.

Also my good experience with toppers and recommending them is why you don’t use toppers? Weird....

I guess as Accumulator put’s it....... “YMMV”
Click to expand...

Probably not my finest hour...

I was trying to say it is very hit-or-miss as to which ones work well and which don`t. CanCoat and Cure are examples of those which preserve/improve the behavior of the coating, while others don`t. It takes a lot of homework and even then might not work out. Someone can play it safe and not top the coating and be perfectly happy with the experience.

I might still not be forming my thoughts as well I have them rattling around my head, but it certainly wasn`t meant to be as pointed as I probably came across the first time.


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