New Rotary User Help

[Dr Oldz]

that`s going to be my plan of attack... but can I effectively cut at 600 rpm on my pe14 as that is the lowest speed

yes you can effectively cut at 600 RPM. It’s what I would suggest. Higher RPMs create more heat and heat is the enemy.

 

[Mr. Slick]

Now that I got my hands on “The Minigun” (rotary polisher) I think it’s faster to start with wool or cutting pad with a modern compound, then finish with an orbital with a polishing pad and light polish. Other steps if necessary. I got the Milwaukee m18 cordless and love it.


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[DarkThrottle]

yes you can effectively cut at 600 RPM. It’s what I would suggest. Higher RPMs create more heat and heat is the enemy.

Yes that I understand very well but I figured if I increased machine speed I would use less pressure and increase arm movement to balance out the additional speed


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[Dr Oldz]

Yes that I understand very well but I figured if I increased machine speed I would use less pressure and increase arm movement to balance out the additional speed


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Why do you want to increase machine speed? Your just learning the rotary so be patient and keep it slow. Less chance for mistakes or burn thru.

 

[Accumulator]

Heh heh....every time I read "..burn through.." it makes me cringe; I hope nobody here comes within spittin` distance of such a severe oops! I worry about people taking off mere microns.

DarkThrottle- I`ve never run a rotary that slowly unless trying to Finish with it, and/but you oughta be fine at that speed. Yes, it will still cut, and as long as you don`t need more speed to break a product down (those days are mostly behind us...I think?!?) there shouldn`t be any problems.

You`re on the right track thinking about arm movements/etc. One of the biggest things is just avoiding letting the machine stay in one place for too long, like at the end of each "arm-movement stroke" (give thought to how you`ll change direction each time), and of course you oughta keep it moving at *all* times no matter what. (Those who get a lot more aggressive might read that and think "well that`s how he`s avoided doing damage", might even think I`m too conservative, but IMO *nothing* is more important than not doing damage..ever).

..most new cars are under 100 microns..

Note that 100 microns is a *LOT* more than was on my last Mazda (an `01, it was around 3-point-oh-something mils in most places), and that`s in the places they actually clearcoated.

 

[DarkThrottle]

I’m picking up a hood from a challenger today so I’m going to do some wet sanding, severe scuffing, medium scuffing and use the rotary and learn how to do it also going to purposely burn thru some things at different speeds to see how long it takes for heat to build up and etc so I can physically experience it to know how to avoid it


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[Mr. Slick]

I’m picking up a hood from a challenger today so I’m going to do some wet sanding, severe scuffing, medium scuffing and use the rotary and learn how to do it also going to purposely burn thru some things at different speeds to see how long it takes for heat to build up and etc so I can physically experience it to know how to avoid it


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Best way to learn! Make a video and share! That would be interesting to watch


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[re-tired]

Its like anything else-- if your going to get real good @ anything, your going to need time on the machine-- practice. Some people need more than others, some are just naturals at whatever specific skill they have. I believe for the absolute best finish a rotary is the tool to use. These new machines ( DA`s) are for less experienced /skilled people that can give them a tool to do a high quality job will less risk . I have a guy that does my body /paint work for me when I need it-- all he owns is a big old ( and i mean old ) rotary-- I would put him up against anyone on any finish ,--anyone, even Todd Helm (Mr. Rotary ) How many folks think that they can put a better finish with a DA than Todd with a rotary??

 

[DarkThrottle]

well I have quite a few things to use the new tool on. I just acquired a 2014 Challenger hood in red for a practice panel, I`m going to do a full correction and ceramic coating on my moms Blue 2014 Toyota Camry that`s been severely neglected over the last few years, and my GFs white 2018 Jeep Patriot its white but it has little to no depth looking forward to getting to put this machine thru its paces. I have the lake country pads extension kit , 3 in bp, 5 in bp and a slew of pads and Menzerna compounds and polishes..im going to hone in on a technique in the 40 or so hours ill put in on those 3 things alone.. then I have my race bike, my truck, and 4 other family Cars that have never seen correction I can polish as well.

 

[Accumulator]

DarkThrottle- Since "burning through" is *way* past the point of "too much", I`d get an ETG and learn how to tell..or at least guesstimate... how much paint you`re taking off. It`s all about not going a few microns too far and with all the relevant variables (amount of paint, ease of cut, panel contours factoring in..and that`s just the car, there`s still the machine/pad/product to consider) there`s a lot to consider.

I know I`m a broken-record on this topic, but I see *SO MANY* cars with cc failure that`s *obviously* the result of over-correction. I can often tell just how they did the buffing and even guess why those areas "needed" so much work to "fix" (scare-quotes intentional as only a paintgun can fix such damage).

How many microns of clear are on a `14 Camry? I simply don`t know, but I`d *need to* before I tried to correct one in a major way. Remember that the UV Resistance (which is basically the *functional* purpose of clearcoat) is all in the top few microns, rather than being uniform from the top to the basecoat. E.g., to use an example I`m familiar with, you might start with 4.5 mils of clear on a typical Ford Crown Victoria, but if you remove more than ~0.66mils the paint will fail under UV exposure (failure-specs per Ford and they oughta know).

OK, enough of my dire warnings What color blue is that Camry? Light blue metallic or darker?

The white Patriot will be interesting, spotting holograms on white can be a good test of your lighting (and inspection skills ). That`ll look *really* great once it`s all shined up! (I for one do *not* find white boring )

 

[DarkThrottle]

lol I got your warnings loud and clear and from talking to people it sounds like I’m going to be too careful to burn thru anything until I start burning test panels on purpose . the Camry is a dark blue I’ve always wanted to do a blue car mostly blacks,silvers and reds. I’m excited for the white I did a white Altima a few years ago that came out wonderful so I know what to expect on the whites..


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[Accumulator]

DarkThrottle- That dark blue might be a good one for spotting holograms/etc. pretty easily, it`s almost like black IMO.

I bet you`ll find that burning through, even deliberately, takes quite a bit of doing I was always having to remind myself that I could get more aggressive than I considered natural (maybe because most b/c is softer than the ss I grew up with), and maybe you`ll be the same way.

 

[DarkThrottle]

Ok soooo today I finally got to run this new PE14 on my test hood

I got this hood from a local body shop for a steal of a deal as it’s in great shape besides the over spray and scratches...I added a few scratches of my own sweeping it off with a broom and lightly running my keys across the surface...I wanted some varying scratches outside of the swirls and overspray from being in a body shop for a few years...Last night I gave it a bath with some cheap soap and clayed it with my mothers clay puck and got it nice and smooth....and taped it off for this mornings activities....

It was heavily swirled and I added some scratches of my own..

I was going to do a full wet sand but I decided to learn some simple scratch and swirl removal techniques on the top of the hood and do all my wet sanding on the lower half. The best part is that this Challenger hood has lots of contours and curves to learn how to handle the machine...I keep it flat most of the time but I’m learning how to edge with the machine at lower speeds..So far Ive worked between 600–1350 rpm monitoring panel heat with my infrared gun and my hand accordingly and surprisingly there was no heat like I expected generated...temps reached max 68-77 deg...I could comfortably touch it and it was barely warm.. I did wet sand 2 sections one with 1500 only and another with 1500 then 2000, I did 2 passes with Menzerna FG400 and a hybrid Orange pad and got ok results...I adjusted my grip on the machine and tried again and while it removed most of the sanding marks there were still a few so I tried SI1500 I had left (no pics of before SI1500) and got much better results no holograms yet...

This next section I did zero wet sanding i just polished with SI1500 and orange hybrid and then finished with white pad and SF4000 2 passes of each

I’d say i did pretty well first time putting a rotary to paint

The bottles of polish I’m using are 8-5 years old but they still work well..I try to use my old stock in practice panels so it doesn’t go to waste..


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[DarkThrottle]

DarkThrottle- That dark blue might be a good one for spotting holograms/etc. pretty easily, it`s almost like black IMO.

I bet you`ll find that burning through, even deliberately, takes quite a bit of doing I was always having to remind myself that I could get more aggressive than I considered natural (maybe because most b/c is softer than the ss I grew up with), and maybe you`ll be the same way.

You know I actually don’t think burning thru will be easy at all now that I’ve used the machine on a couple different speeds


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[Accumulator]

You know I actually don’t think burning thru will be easy at all now that I’ve used the machine on a couple different speeds

Heh heh...see?

Sounds like your careful, thought-out approach is working great.

One thing though...(here I go being all doom-and-gloom again ) ...unless you`re a natural Rotary Meister, I bet you do have holograms, just need to get the inspection conditions right to see `em. I`ve had cases where it took two people, working *really hard at it* so spot them, but they were there and IMO would`ve been obvious under other conditions. (But OTOH, I can imagine people thinking "if they`re that had to find, I don`t care about `em" ).

And FWIW, one of the main reasons why I don`t use Menzerna stuff is the way it can conceal things like holograms. The ones on my Yukon XLD stayed hidden for ages before showing up (and did show up even though the Pro in question worked hard to strip everything before LSPing and despite the LSP on top of them still being perfectly fine..those hard-to-remove oils *can* dissipate right under a good LSP exposing stuff you thought wasn`t there).

EDIT: Oh, and (on a good note for once!), those polishes may well still be perfectly fine. None of my Abrasives are even close to being that new but they`re all still OK.

 

[DarkThrottle]

Heh heh...see?

Sounds like your careful, thought-out approach is working great.

One thing though...(here I go being all doom-and-gloom again ) ...unless you`re a natural Rotary Meister, I bet you do have holograms, just need to get the inspection conditions right to see `em. I`ve had cases where it took two people, working *really hard at it* so spot them, but they were there and IMO would`ve been obvious under other conditions. (But OTOH, I can imagine people thinking "if they`re that had to find, I don`t care about `em" ).

And FWIW, one of the main reasons why I don`t use Menzerna stuff is the way it can conceal things like holograms. The ones on my Yukon XLD stayed hidden for ages before showing up (and did show up even though the Pro in question worked hard to strip everything before LSPing and despite the LSP on top of them still being perfectly fine..those hard-to-remove oils *can* dissipate right under a good LSP exposing stuff you thought wasn`t there).

EDIT: Oh, and (on a good note for once!), those polishes may well still be perfectly fine. None of my Abrasives are even close to being that new but they`re all still OK.

I did a CarPro eraser soaked wipe down then I did a IPA wipe down,I inspected under the sun as well as with my prospot detail light and my handheld swirl finder light I really really really was hoping and looking for some form of holograms but I truly believe they aren’t there I’m really hoping there are some actually BECUASE I paid so much attention to everything I was doing from grip, to pressure, to arm speed to amount of compound etc every possible aspect so I would know exactly what works and exactly where things went wrong...I even tried following my buffing pattern with the light to see if I can pick up on any trails I used all foam pads and from what I understand so far holograms come from wool pads, high speed and fast movement or heavy abrasives in the compound that leave marks and scratches to be removed...I even examined from a inch off the paint lol I usually can find all defects if any as hard as I search for them but nothing just the scratches that were too deep to try to remove


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[DarkThrottle]

But just out of curiosity what other handheld light would work great for seeing holograms and other hard to see defects


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[Dr Oldz]

Looks like your getting it.

question and not busting on you here.....
looks like you got some pad hazing or is it just the camera doing that????? Those reflection shots should be crisper.

 

[DarkThrottle]

Looks like your getting it.

question and not busting on you here.....
looks like you got some pad hazing or is it just the camera doing that????? Those reflection shots should be crisper.

I don’t know exactly what pad hazing would be in this instance could possibly be the camera as I was sweaty when handling the camera but also could be the panel not sure actually


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[SWETM]

Those pads you use and the Menzerna polishes is very good for polishing with a rotary. It`s often the pads that have a sharp edge around them and high speed on the polisher and you tilt with the polisher. That you create holograms. You can do only 1 faster pass and do a wipe down with the ipa or Eraser. To see holograms easier. With the diminishing abrasives in Menzerna you often has them break it down so you correct the initial holograms actually in the same polishing cycle. Then if you go to the real extreme you always put a new but finer scratch pattern when you step up to finer polishes. So even under the most visual inspection light you have always scratches in the paint. And you can`t avoid this but you can get such of fine scratch pattern so the human eye can`t see them. But they are still there. That`s also why if you inspect it to the extreme you can find places where you don`t maybe polished enough during the polishing cycle or that you didn`t broke down the abrasives in it enough. Think that it looks great. The only thing from just looking at the pictures is it`s looks like some pad haze. This can absolutely be the camera that does this too. So as just it looks great for your point of view it`s great.

I really like the Scangrip Sunmatch and I have the first version of it. The mini Sunmatch light seems to be like the first version but in a smaller case. The Sunmatch v3 you have different light settings on it. So you can easier spot defects on different kind of colors and also different kind of depths of defects in the paint. With haveing a silver metallic paint and also a white paint I work on. I tested different lights and sure you saw some of the defects in the paint. But after testing different lights I got a great offer on the first versions of Scangrip when they released their v3 of them. And it really does make a huge difference in the defects you can see with it. The CRI value combined with the Kalvin and the rest I don`t remember LOL. It makes it to a really great inspection light. Maybe you can find another brand that has simualar values of the specs as the Scangrips. You can get a great inspection light from that too. They have a setting on the v3 that says to mimick the sunlight as close as possible. That setting I think would catch the holograms even under the light good. It`s not always the sun is up or hides behind the clouds LOL.

The easiest to burn through is on the edges of the panel or a high bodyline. There the paint gets thinner. Also it depends on if it`s been polished on before and you have even a thinner clearcoat than from the factory. It`s also much when you are compounding and the pads really digs in when you go over an edge or bodyline the risk of getting through the paint is higher. And also when you have speeds over 2000rpm things can go really fast to an oops LOL. Many still do the high speed polishing with rotary polishers and that`s around 3000rpm. The results gets there after and the risk of burning through gets way higher and also even with a polishing pad and polish it`s hard to avoid holograms in those speeds. Keep it at a comfortable speed setting and pay attention on the panel and you will be fine with the risk of polishing with a rotary polisher. Then be thorough with the technique and you keep the risk of holograms at a low level. Many likes the Scholl polishes when useing a rotary polisher. Such as S3 Gold XXL compound and S40 as a finishing polish and the S30 is also a great one. Menzerna is also a great line of polishes and Sonax too. Wondering how the CSi polish is that Darren at the Autofetich detailing channel is doing a lot of advertising on and is going to sell it if I got it right. So maybe take it with a grain of salt. But the system sounds interesting. The biggest drawback that I have seen is it dust a lot. But the clean up seems easy to do. It`s a non diminishing abrasives in it.