What is vibration and why does it matter?

[WhyteWizard]

A lot of people have vibration related injuries even when they've run very smooth machines. Running a machine against a surface always sends vibrations back through the machine - at least to the extent that there's friction against the surface. So, I've become a fan of vibration dampening gloves, particularly these:

They're MadGrip gloves and I like them because they're relatively cheap, close to ten bucks, available at Lowes and they're washable. They're also great for any job where you want to be able to get a good grip on something. Sheet metal for example, or even boxes, if you happen to be moving.

Also, keeping my wrists straight has proven to be important. Lots of us have fallen by the wayside from repetitive motion injuries. I'm 63 and still going good, at least so far, but I've had to pay attention to get here.

Madgrip gloves at Lowes.

Robert

 

[Bunky]

You have detailers that think the HF is every bit as good (depends on what you consider primary criteria( as Rupes so lots of opinion but then many like Bud as their favorite beer. For some alcohol is alcohol and less about taste. My old UDM 1.0 vibrated a lot so got the Rupes since I did not like the GG6.

 

[Angus]

A lot of people have vibration related injuries even when they've run very smooth machines. Running a machine against a surface always sends vibrations back through the machine - at least to the extent that there's friction against the surface. So, I've become a fan of vibration dampening gloves, particularly these:

They're MadGrip gloves and I like them because they're relatively cheap, close to ten bucks, available at Lowes and they're washable. They're also great for any job where you want to be able to get a good grip on something. Sheet metal for example, or even boxes, if you happen to be moving.

Also, keeping my wrists straight has proven to be important. Lots of us have fallen by the wayside from repetitive motion injuries. I'm 63 and still going good, at least so far, but I've had to pay attention to get here.

Madgrip gloves at Lowes.

Robert

Great suggestion. I'll keep an eye out for those next time I'm in Lowes.

 

[ShawnF350]

I spent a lot of time on the road, teaching our distribution on the RUPES system. I almost always use the system in the manner it was developed (although I also love that people think and go outside of the box). I am so used to feeling the balance and near vibration free performance, that I am likely sensitive to changes. When I used my 21 with 15's backing plate and pads, I felt a significant difference.

Simply operate the tool in free air and touch the body. You will feel the buzz. Swap to engineered backing plate and pad and it is as close to vibration free as likely possible. A significant amount of time was invested in this effort.

I understand - and appreciate - that even a small amount of vibration is understood to be normal with this style of tool, but I also know that it can all but be eliminated. Give it a shot and report back

I'll need Ray's help!!!
Two of all four colored 7" Pads for my 21.
Waiting on a PM from him after he reads this.. Lol

 

[nothingface5384]

Well if thats the case why dont you guys make a 5in backing plate for the rupes 21with enough mass to renuetralize the counter balance to keep it vibration free? Same for the 15 6in plate

 

[David Fermani]

Just to reiterate, one of the most unique things that goes along with owning a RUPES over any other large throw DA is the engineering and technology that has gone into these machines. They simply didn't just reengineer an existing machine. Let's be reminded that they created this mainstream, game changing technology that other companies have been actively trying to replicate. Could they have made their machines better? Sure, but just like any other product manufacturer they strive to constantly improve their products. That's basically second nature to any company that is technologically driven like I know they are. I'm very certain that they have been listening to end users critiques and are planning on bringing more new and exciting machines to paint polishers around the world that will continue them to be the market leader in R&D as well as sales. This article by Todd is just 1 of the many things that can assist owners and potential buyers that their decision to own/buy a RUPES is a correct one. I for one am and will continue to give them my full attention and support. Having them as a sponsor on Autopia makes it even better!

 

[RaysWay]

So if someone changed the backing plate but it was of the same mass and same size that shouldn't affect the vibration correct?

Well if thats the case why dont you guys make a 5in backing plate for the rupes 21with enough mass to renuetralize the counter balance to keep it vibration free? Same for the 15 6in plate

I'm not an engineer, but in balanced systems the location of the mass is just as important as the amount of mass.

For example, if you had two identical 2000 Mercury Sables and moved the engine in one of them by 1 inch in any direction; the car would not handle exactly the same as the Mercury Sable with the engine in the stock location even though the total mass of both vehicles are identical. Todd touched on the importance of the location of mass in this statement:

Vibration, for this discussion, is a factor of being out of balance. Random orbital polishers, by design, are quite unbalanced. You have a large mass (backing plate/pad/spindle) that is orbiting around a center axis point. The further the mass is away from the axis, the greater the unbalance, the more intense the vibration becomes.






It's easier to visualize when you think of torque. (Notice the amount of force required is dependent on the location)

So if you have a balanced system that was engineered to work with a 6 inch backing plate that weights 30 grams, it's not as simple as replacing it with a 5 inch backing plate that weighs 30 grams. I'm sure engineering students all over the world wished the engineering was so simple.

Also the more variables there are, the more complicated the math and physics become. If you want to keep the machine balanced, the entire system has to be considered; not just the backing plate. (bottom counterweight, shaft, top counterweight, mass of both counterweights, length of shaft, mass of shaft, etc etc etc)

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Well if thats the case why dont you guys make a 5in backing plate for the rupes 21with enough mass to renuetralize the counter balance to keep it vibration free? Same for the 15 6in plate

Exceptional question with an equally exceptional answer by Vega. What I tried to touch on - and perhaps struggled with because I am not an engineer - is that dynamic balance is far more than just mass. When I asked this question during my visit to Milan, the answer I received echo's Vegas. The location of mass is equally as important (perhaps more so) than the mass. RUPES BigFoot Pads are dynamically balanced to both the backing pad and the internal counter balance of the tool. Even though RUPES uses the highest quality components inside of the polishers (I have literally had tool guys gush about the quality of bearings), the nature of a large diameter random orbital tool is such that incredible amount of stress is placed on the internal components unless the system is balanced correctly.

It is very difficult to dynamically balance the tool with a smaller pad and backing plate unless the CoG (center of gravity) can be manipulated in a way that maintains dynamic balance. RUPES as an engineering firm holds itself to an extraordinary high standard. As a tool manufacturer, they feel compelled to deliver products that meet a very high standard to the customer. That said, nothing is impossible and we never know what the future holds

However, it is a great question and one I have asked myself.

 

[Stokdgs]

Great suggestion. I'll keep an eye out for those next time I'm in Lowes.

Good men,
Love the information exchanged on this thread - thank you so much !

Robert,
Thanks for the tip on the gloves..

I too, from decades of using big power tools including years of big bar chainsaw time, came to the point where all my carpal tunnels wrists and hands were damaged and nothing was going to help them except surgery..
Lucky for me I was still married, had access to 2 health plans, and found some awesome hand surgeons on Pill Hill, Seattle, WA., that used microsurgery to go into all the tunnels where they neck down and were damaged and repaired everything in both arms and all the tunnels in each hand..
Never had I ever had such relief from all that pain ! Once healed up and I didnt wait long because I had the Detailing Bizz to run, I was great and have never looked back..

All of those wrist and arm bands with velcro, etc., sports therapy, massage, ice, the electronic things that send weak currents across your joints, etc., not going to really do it until you get the surgery..
Hope that all of those who are dealing with the pain which will never go away completely, may be able to get in to see a hand surgeon.. It really works..
Dan F

 

[Swanicyouth]

Funny I have to send my machine(s) back .

Well, I may have been wrong about that ... if you can't keep the machines. Lolz. I dunno if I would be willing (bother) to test a machine if I had to send it back. How cheap can you be??? Maybe they don't want you to have it for a long time???

but I did go through all of the liquids recently and PURCHASED more,

Who cares? Like a zillion companies make great polishes now: Menz, 3D, Megs, Optimum, Polish Angel, Sonax, etc...

The point of the thread (I believe), is regarding all the engineering, testing, and refinement that went into Rupes' machines. You could substitute any of the above polishes listed above and get great results with heir machines.

another funny thing Rupes fought Kevin Brown initially over the washer mod HE THOUGHT of not Rupes and another Midwest Rupes seller said the washer was bad...............then flipped his position after he stuck his finger in the air to see the public opinion after he saw how much it improved the performance.

Irrelevant.

The point is (and was), Rupes engineered the machines and stuck behind their design. They're not "seeing which way the wind blows" and changing their position on the washer mod (which IME does little). Those other people aren't the tool manufacturer. I think Rupes' position on the washer mod has always been 100% crystal clear - it's not necessary.

Is there a scintilla of evidence (any proof at all???) the washer mod adds to the final result of Rupes' machines?

KB may have thought of the WM, but the system is 110% capable without it. To design a complete and balanced "system" and include a washer that is optional is silly IMHO. Talking about sticking your finger in the air.... Have some confidence in your design.

I gave my opinion on the Boss 21 and other products as favorable, and when the Rupes was released in the states Kevin sold Richie (Paint Protection of Orlando) and myself the first two machines available as we followed him home from Vegas(SEMA)to his storage facility and have a FACEBOOK pic showing this and guess what I gave a favorable review then so was I schilling then also?.

Knucklehead comments from those who do not know zip.

KB SOLD you the machines? You weren't given them for free?

Would you have purchased the Griot's polishers???

Do you regularly buy Griot's products and recognize them as an innovator in detailing technology???

Where are your other reviews on Griot's products?

Knucklehead comments from those who do not know zip.

Whatever dude. You have your opinions and I have mine. I'm sure the Griot's machine and polishes work fine. It just a shame they had to design it off the sweat of others.

 

[RaysWay]

Let's stay on topic fellas.

Rules:
2. Please refrain from arguing, slamming, bashing or profanity in the public forums. We do encourage spirited debate and conversation. Just be polite and courteous at all times. If you feel that you are being attacked, harassed or stalked at anytime, let a Moderator or the Administrator know about it and the problem will be addressed ASAP.

Knucklehead comments from those who do not know zip.

 

[XxBoostinxX]

A lot of very valuable information as always Todd. I have always been happy with my two Rupes purchases and plan on making a third.

 

[ShawnF350]

Whether it be the washer mod or Sandpaper Mod..
Even if it gives no benefit..
How else can I fling product all over people I don't want around me (wife too) while I'm polishing if I don't do the mod.

 

[Junebug]

Really, Todd sells Rules and he says they are the best. Let that sink in for a second. This thread is pointless. Until there is an independent third party test both machines in a controlled environment like a Myth Buster segment, it's all marketing.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Really, Todd sells Rules and he says they are the best. Let that sink in for a second. This thread is pointless.

LOL, when this thread started I thought to myself--this isn't going to end well.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

A lot of very valuable information as always Todd. I have always been happy with my two Rupes purchases and plan on making a third.

Im glad to have helped. I'm also happy to hear your satisfaction with RUPES

Whether it be the washer mod or Sandpaper Mod..
Even if it gives no benefit..
How else can I fling product all over people I don't want around me (wife too) while I'm polishing if I don't do the mod.

Good point lol.

Really, Todd sells Rules and he says they are the best. Let that sink in for a second. This thread is pointless. Until there is an independent third party test both machines in a controlled environment like a Myth Buster segment, it's all marketing.

This thread is about how and why RUPES engineered their system to be as nearly vibration free as possible, not a comparison between other machines. This is obviously a sponsored section in this forum, so of course the content will be about RUPES. This much should be obvious.

Of course I work for RUPES, but I would never be so arrogant as to assume that anything is best for everybody.

 

[RaskyR1]

This thread is about how and why RUPES engineered their system to be as nearly vibration free as possible, not a comparison between other machines.

It really is a systematic approach, truly engineered from the ground up. If you compare the vibration level of any other orbital polisher system against the BigFoot System, the difference is night and day. It is why RUPES doesn't recommend changing backing plate sizes or using pads that will effect the balance of the tool. The point of this thread is emphasize how important vibration free operation is.

It is a responsibility that RUPES as a tool manufacturer (since 1947) and engineering firm takes very seriously.

Todd, I consider you a very good friend and have a ton of respect for you, but I simply can't ignore comments and posts like this. I'm sure this thread has good intentions, but it became a comparison against other machines as soon as you made the above comment. I love Rupes and appreciate everything they have done for the industry. I had one of the very first LHR21's in the US and currently own 5 Rupes polishers. BUT, I have also tested a newer polisher that I feel is equally as smooth and feel if Rupes is going to make such claims as above they should probably show actual test data to back it up. These new tools have only been available for about a month, which is another reason I question the statements made above.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Todd, I consider you a very good friend and have a ton of respect for you, but I simply can't ignore comments and posts like this. I'm sure this thread has good intentions, but it became a comparison against other machines as soon as you made the above comment. I love Rupes and appreciate everything they have done for the industry. I had one of the very first LHR21's in the US and currently own 5 Rupes polishers. BUT, I have also tested a newer polisher that I feel is equally as smooth and feel if Rupes is going to make such claims as above they should probably show actual test data to back it up. These new tools have only been available for about a month, which is another reason I question the statements made above.

Very fair post Chad and good point. I certainly did invite comparisons with the wording of my posts, no doubt about it. I try very hard, but I am human and I am guilty of not thinking before I post. Of course the respect is beyond mutual.

RUPES does very sophisticated testing, but this is a case where compared system to system, anybody can feel the difference. When RUPES was first introduced to the U.S., recommendations were made about changing backing plate and pad sizes, and one of the most benefitical engineering points was lost. Many people have not experienced the near vibration free operation that BigFoot was engineered to have.

I would invite anybody to test the systems for themselves, with the appropriately designed pads to expericence the difference.

The timing has more with me having the time to post actively on the form, negotiations to become a sponsor have been in play since the Autopia merger announced at SEMA, than anything else. I have privately defended your integrity and will do so publically, even if our opinions are vastly different

 

[ShawnF350]

I spent a lot of time on the road, teaching our distribution on the RUPES system. I almost always use the system in the manner it was developed (although I also love that people think and go outside of the box). I am so used to feeling the balance and near vibration free performance, that I am likely sensitive to changes. When I used my 21 with 15's backing plate and pads, I felt a significant difference.

Simply operate the tool in free air and touch the body. You will feel the buzz. Swap to engineered backing plate and pad and it is as close to vibration free as likely possible. A significant amount of time was invested in this effort.

I understand - and appreciate - that even a small amount of vibration is understood to be normal with this style of tool, but I also know that it can all but be eliminated. Give it a shot and report back

Todd, the 7 inch pads are with FedEx. Ordered all 2ea 7" of all 4 colored pads + the UHS pads all 3 sizes.
I have a blue and yellow microfiber pad. I think I have a 6"+7". Are the microfiber pads a very small difference between the two sizes?
One is tapered and the other is mostly a straight cut from the padding to the microfiber. Larger Velcro area. I would say it's only 1/4" diameter larger.

Will the 6 +7 inch pads be the full inch larger where the microfibers aren't?

 

[Ccrew]

Of course I work for RUPES, but I would never be so arrogant as to assume that anything is best for everybody.

But you would drive by a Rupes thread, throw a dislike at it and as a vendor rep not explain why you did so. That's a bit arrogant in my book. Just saying.