How does paint cleaning differ from polishing?

[Nav45]

I started getting into detailing a few months ago and thanks to the help here and elsewhere, I can say that I have learned a few things. I really appreciate all the great help.

I know that people use a finishing polish after a compound/heavy polish and also use the finishing polish sometimes just to add a nicer shine to the paint. What I'm wondering is why some people recommend all-in-one products and paint cleaners? Do they do something that finishing polishes don't? Is the only reason to use them is to remove embedded dirt or watermarks, etc? Or is to save time? I believe AIO products are a combination of polish and sealant but I might be partially wrong here I think.

Let's say one has polished the car using a compound and then a finishing polish. After a few years, there might be a slight need to fix a minor scratch here and there. In this situation, is a finishing polish, AIO or paint cleaner better? What will be the gentlest way to add more shine to the paint of these?

So when does one use finishing polish, AIO and paint cleaner (I'm still not so sure about the last two type of products)? Thanks.

 

[rlmccarty2000]

AIO, all in one refers to a product that polishes and protects in one step. Example Menzerma 3 in 1. No other steps are needed.
Finishing polish refers to a fine polish usually used as the final polishing step after a compound. Example Menzerma 4500
Paint cleaner is a product that cleans the paint to remove anything left over contaminants from the polishing process usually used befor applying a sealant or coating.
I hope I cleared up some of your questions.

 

[MooreImpressive]

like he said, "paint cleaning" is a term generally used is conjunction with an all in 1 product, like a "cleaner wax". there are several on the market, most brands have one. we use a ton of Meguiars 66 "quick detailer" which does a really great job of cleaning (removing light oxidation and a little correction of scratches and swirls, basically), then polishing, and leaving behind 3-6 months of protection, all at the same time, in 1 step. its an awesome product if you do a lot of standard full details where people don't want much correction, they simply want clean and shiny. best part, Megs 66 is SUPER CHEAP, and very easy to apply/remove. highly recommend this product.

 

[MiVor]

I am going to differ slightly from the previous two posts. As an example, lets take a well washed vehicle...but when we clay, we easily see and remove contaminants that washing alone did not remove. Cleaners (in 'wax' like AIO products or just 'pre-cleaners') use a chemical cleaner to further clean the surface while sometimes also applying an LSP. You might think of it like the difference between cleaning with soap and water and cleaning with alcohol.
On the other hand, compounding and polishing are much more abrasive grit and actually remove (like sanding down) a fine layer of clear coat to remove fine imperfections (marring, swirl marks, fine scratches, etc.).

As with all cleaning/polishing, a good rule is to use the least amount of abusive force needed to achieve the desired result. Some get too obsessed about polishing to attempt to maintain a show car shine on a daily driver. This is arguably an impossible task. What I think we need to strive for (unless it is a garage queen show car) is a good looking PROTECTED paint that we can be happy with.
So "Put down that polisher citizen and step away." :rofl

 

[wdmaccord]

Some paint cleaners have a glaze component which will fill in micro-scratches. This is a good option for a daily driver that you don't want to keep abrading every 6 months to remove fine scratches from daily use. The cleaner component, which is usually chemical in nature, takes the last bits of contaminants off the surface after your decon process so that the paint is ready to receive a sealant. Since you usually don't want to use an IPA after a paint cleaner with a glaze (IPA can remove the glaze component that filled in the scratches) it is a good idea to use a sealant in the same family as your paint cleaner. For example I just did my spring detail with BF GEP and went straight to BFWD and BFCS (CS applied after WD cured for 12 hours).

 

[Migue]

like he said, "paint cleaning" is a term generally used is conjunction with an all in 1 product, like a "cleaner wax". there are several on the market, most brands have one. we use a ton of Meguiars 66 "quick detailer" which does a really great job of cleaning (removing light oxidation and a little correction of scratches and swirls, basically), then polishing, and leaving behind 3-6 months of protection, all at the same time, in 1 step. its an awesome product if you do a lot of standard full details where people don't want much correction, they simply want clean and shiny. best part, Megs 66 is SUPER CHEAP, and very easy to apply/remove. highly recommend this product.

What would be the difference between Megs 66 and D151? does one cut more than the other or offer more protection? I use D151 for my Details on daily drivers with great results, curious about how different 66 is and if it'd be worth looking into.

 

[Accumulator]

This is one of those areas where different people use words differently and we'll never reach a 100% concensus. I consider "Paint Cleaners" to be chemical cleaners without (functional) abrasives while I consider "Polishes" to be abrasive products (right there I differ from Meguiar's terminology). AIOS are, to me, as previously suggested, "do it all" products that may (Zaino) or may not (Klasse) be functionally abrasive.

The "Paint Cleaners" I've used were functionally nonabrasive, despite some manufacturers' claims that the products would "remove light scratches". Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion is the one I have the most experience with, but I've also used Meguiar's Deep Crystal Step #1, the P21s Gloss Enhancing Polish (whichI consider misnamed), and I *once* tried a little Zymol HD Cleanse.

The BlackFire GEP seemed to contain some *very* mild abrasives, but somebody once posted that a batch of it was surprisingly abrasive for him (that was a *long* time ago).

If you want to correct marring, I wouldn't expect a Paint Cleaner to do it.

 

[Dellinger]

Without getting too technical... I will try to condense M66 vs. D151.

M66- older AIO from Meg's. Features diminishing abrasives and a polymer/ carnauba hybrid wax. A 'wet' product (read- oily, runny). When I have used it... it seems to fill/ hide quite a bit more than D151. When used properly, dusting is not an issue and wipes nicely. Protection is lame... 4 weeks. It is also has less cut than D151. This product is more user friendly than D151 (if you haven't worked with either before.)

D151- newer AIO from Meg's. Features SMAT abrasive technology and a polymer/ carnauba hybrid wax. A thicker-creamier product than M66. Cuts well for an AIO but does not finish well all the time (can leave haze/ micro marring behind.) It has a tendency to dust if overworked or heavy pressure is applied to the pad. If not immediately wiped off... it can be a chore to remove. Protection is better than M66, ranges from 6- 8 weeks depending on environment/ storage. It will hide defects if worked 'fast.'

Both products cut/ cleaning can be altered by pad choice.

Regarding Polish/ AIO/ Paint cleaner...

Dedicated paint cleaners are usually a chemical only product with no abrasives. They are not 'old' technology but to an extent have become, or seem to be, less used, professionally. They do work well though and can be prefered to AIO because they lack any sort of wax/ sealant.

AIO's typically have an abrasive set, along with some sort of conditioner (oils), and a protective component (wax/polymer). They can do all things fairly well (some AIO's better than others) but no where near 'excellent.'

Finishing polishes can be desired over the previous two because they contain chemical cleaners and mechanical cleaners (abrasives.) They can remove clear coat to provide real defect removal and chemical clean the surface as well. Some polishes are more oily than others... and like any 'polish' they can hide if worked 'quickly.'

Hope it helps and best regards,
-Gabe

The main idea here is to find the type of product that meet your needs- i.e.: saves you time, gives you the best clarity, allows you to use an LSP of your choice, etc. There is no wrong answer... you decide what fits best in your regimen and or achieves your personal goal.

 

[Migue]

I have noticed the slight Micromarring you mention, Dellinger , but it was when i used an orange LC Pad and it was on tan paint, so it was really only noticeable by an "autopian eye" and i had to be like an inch away to notice it. When i used it on black paint, i used a White LC Pad and the paint turned out great IMO.

 

[Dellinger]

Migue- interesting... I would have thought you would have seen the marring on black and NOT have seen in on beige/tan. But... just goes to show test spots are pretty darn important and you can never be certain how one paint system will react vs. the other. Generalizations are just that...'in general.' If you are happy with the results... that's all that matters.

 

[Migue]

Migue- interesting... I would have thought you would have seen the marring on black and NOT have seen in on beige/tan. But... just goes to show test spots are pretty darn important and you can never be certain how one paint system will react vs. the other. Generalizations are just that...'in general.' If you are happy with the results... that's all that matters.

It could have been that since i noticed it on the Tan vehicle(which i worked on first) I was more aware from that experience and knowing i had a black vehicle to work on next, i toned it down and went with a much less aggressive pad(white polishing pad instead of Orange LC ) AND i cut back on speed/pressure to reduce risk of micromarring the paint. This black SUV was also a pearl black and not jet black, so if any micromarring was present, it could have "blended" with all pearl specs, who knows. The Customer was extremely happy with it and said it looked better than when they bought it from the dealership so that's a win for me.

I'm very sure you are a lot more knowledgeable and experienced than I am and i thank you for bringing up the micromarring you've experienced with the D151 (i thought it was just me) and explaining the 66 VS. D151 differences from your experience. You've saved me $ from buying the 66, I will keep looking into different brands of AIO to have a decent variety. To you and all that know - what AIO Brands out there have less or no glaze fillers ?

I got interested in the OP's inquiry as well because I have a small bottle of MB Paint Cleaner and Megs Cleaner Wax I've never used (got them for free don't remember when). They're probably no good after years of just sitting there and i won't really have a use for them.

Below is a Before/After shot with D151/White LC Pad that better shows the pearl on the paint showing what i meant about the micromarring maybe being there but for me, being more challenging to spot due to the specs/pearls mixed with the paint.

And if the OP is interested, here's a 50/50 shot of what D151 on an Orange LC Pad with a Porter Cable after just one "session" can do for you.

 

[Dellinger]

It could have been that since i noticed it on the Tan vehicle(which i worked on first) I was more aware from that experience and knowing i had a black vehicle to work on next, i toned it down and went with a much less aggressive pad(white polishing pad instead of Orange LC ) AND i cut back on speed/pressure to reduce risk of micromarring the paint. This black SUV was also a pearl black and not jet black, so if any micromarring was present, it could have "blended" with all pearl specs, who knows. The Customer was extremely happy with it and said it looked better than when they bought it from the dealership so that's a win for me.

I'm very sure you are a lot more knowledgeable and experienced than I am and i thank you for bringing up the micromarring you've experienced with the D151 (i thought it was just me) and explaining the 66 VS. D151 differences from your experience. You've saved me $ from buying the 66, I will keep looking into different brands of AIO to have a decent variety. To you and all that know - what AIO Brands out there have less or no glaze fillers ?

Migue-

First off, thanks for the kind words but I wouldn't say I would happen to be 'more' knowledgeable than yourself. You did exactly what logic would dictate... the 151 was leaving marring behind on the lighter base color and you knew that the black base would show more 'damage' from the pad/ product combo. So you changed it up. That's what detailing is mostly about... troubleshooting. The pearl and flake in the black metallic base you spoke of can tend to hide micro marring. Sometimes I use a 'flashlight app' on my Samsung S5 to spot it. I have various LED lights and stands but the smaller light helps me spot it on light metallics and probably would have helped on that dark metallic pearl. I tend to hold the 'light' a various angles moving it slowly... then hold the 'light' still and move my head at angles slowly.

If you are looking for an AIO other than 151... HD Speed works really well for me. Great cut, cleaning, work time and fantastic looks. The product is very predictable to use (no dust, finishes awesome) so that's why I recommend it. Protection is in the dumps- 4 weeks (many contest this... and that's fine but these are my findings on tests I have completed in my climate.) However HD has a 'quick wax' (HD Express) to do a final wipe with if you want to extend protection. HD Speed can/ will fill (what product won't) but ever so slightly... especially if you work it. In general, I tend to use a Pink LC pad on domestic/ european paint systems and Green B&S pad on Asian imports. I always test spot but typically those are the pads that cut well and finish excellent with Speed on said paint systems.

EDIT: D151 will have more cut than HD Speed... but not by much.

 

[Migue]

Migue-

First off, thanks for the kind words but I wouldn't say I would happen to be 'more' knowledgeable than yourself. You did exactly what logic would dictate... the 151 was leaving marring behind on the lighter base color and you knew that the black base would show more 'damage' from the pad/ product combo. So you changed it up. That's what detailing is mostly about... troubleshooting. The pearl and flake in the black metallic base you spoke of can tend to hide micro marring. Sometimes I use a 'flashlight app' on my Samsung S5 to spot it. I have various LED lights and stands but the smaller light helps me spot it on light metallics and probably would have helped on that dark metallic pearl. I tend to hold the 'light' a various angles moving it slowly... then hold the 'light' still and move my head at angles slowly.

If you are looking for an AIO other than 151... HD Speed works really well for me. Great cut, cleaning, work time and fantastic looks. The product is very predictable to use (no dust, finishes awesome) so that's why I recommend it. Protection is in the dumps- 4 weeks (many contest this... and that's fine but these are my findings on tests I have completed in my climate.) However HD has a 'quick wax' (HD Express) to do a final wipe with if you want to extend protection. HD Speed can/ will fill (what product won't) but ever so slightly... especially if you work it. In general, I tend to use a Pink LC pad on domestic/ european paint systems and Green B&S pad on Asian imports. I always test spot but typically those are the pads that cut well and finish excellent with Speed on said paint systems.

EDIT: D151 will have more cut than HD Speed... but not by much.

Thanks, i will definitely give HD Speed a try , will be my next purchase. Funny that i see your post now, just got back from starting to work on a jet black infinity SUV and the darn D151 is giving me micromarring and that definitely proves that the pearl was definitely hiding it. Couldn't even finish it today (weather crapped out really bad on me and the truck kept getting drizzled with angled rain) . D151 is the only AIO i currently have, so i'm gonna have to play with it some more tomorrow with the Flex because today's results delayed my work. Good thing the customer's out of town.

What would you recommend to minimize the micromarring even more? already using a white LC Pad and tried a speed 3 on the Flex DA, but still some micromarring shows up. Don't have any "softer" pads, aside from a couple of Black LC pads that i occasionally use to apply Glaze or "jewel" the paint on occasion.

 

[Dellinger]

Keep the pad clean. Work a section and clean the pad...then apply a dime size spot and work the same section fast. That's how M205 can be worked to fight micro marring. Will it work with 151? I don't know. Let us know.

 

[Migue]

Keep the pad clean. Work a section and clean the pad...then apply a dime size spot and work the same section fast. That's how M205 can be worked to fight micro marring. Will it work with 151? I don't know. Let us know.

With the D151, only way i found i could reduce the Micromarring on this paint was to hit it a very low speed with the white pad/ flex, i'm talking about like speed 2 and no pressure.....but then that doesn't really take care of many swirls. I don't plan on using D151 on Jet Black paint again, it took me too long with this AIO Detail so i'm going to try out HD Speed and Megs #66 next time.

 

[Nav45]

AIO, all in one refers to a product that polishes and protects in one step. Example Menzerma 3 in 1. No other steps are needed.
Finishing polish refers to a fine polish usually used as the final polishing step after a compound. Example Menzerma 4500
Paint cleaner is a product that cleans the paint to remove anything left over contaminants from the polishing process usually used befor applying a sealant or coating.
I hope I cleared up some of your questions.

Yes, however, I see some products being called an AIO and paint cleaner - such as Klasse. These products are sometimes used before applying another protective product on top of them. I would have thought it was odd because doesn't the surface need to be fairly bare in order to apply an LSP? I do appreciate it.

like he said, "paint cleaning" is a term generally used is conjunction with an all in 1 product, like a "cleaner wax". there are several on the market, most brands have one. we use a ton of Meguiars 66 "quick detailer" which does a really great job of cleaning (removing light oxidation and a little correction of scratches and swirls, basically), then polishing, and leaving behind 3-6 months of protection, all at the same time, in 1 step. its an awesome product if you do a lot of standard full details where people don't want much correction, they simply want clean and shiny. best part, Megs 66 is SUPER CHEAP, and very easy to apply/remove. highly recommend this product.

That seems like a great product! I'm wondering for the consumer who potentially has more time to spend on their car, why use this type of product? It certainly makes sense for some people. I'm curious. I've seen Klasse AIO being mentioned as a similar type product. Thanks.

I am going to differ slightly from the previous two posts. As an example, lets take a well washed vehicle...but when we clay, we easily see and remove contaminants that washing alone did not remove. Cleaners (in 'wax' like AIO products or just 'pre-cleaners') use a chemical cleaner to further clean the surface while sometimes also applying an LSP. You might think of it like the difference between cleaning with soap and water and cleaning with alcohol.
On the other hand, compounding and polishing are much more abrasive grit and actually remove (like sanding down) a fine layer of clear coat to remove fine imperfections (marring, swirl marks, fine scratches, etc.).

As with all cleaning/polishing, a good rule is to use the least amount of abusive force needed to achieve the desired result. Some get too obsessed about polishing to attempt to maintain a show car shine on a daily driver. This is arguably an impossible task. What I think we need to strive for (unless it is a garage queen show car) is a good looking PROTECTED paint that we can be happy with.
So "Put down that polisher citizen and step away." :rofl

Yes sir. I'm with you! I am curious if there is a product that "deep cleans" (remove the stuff that clay can remove and maybe more) and also can do very fine polishing (don't want to remove any more paint). What's really weird for me is that a lot of the AIO/paint cleaning products seem to leave protection behind. I would figure there would be more products that don't leave protection behind because the users may want to apply their own LSPs. Thanks.

I think I'm slowly catching on I think.

A lot of products use phrases that are a bit tricky to discern but the key is to know what to look for.

 

[Dellinger]

With the D151, only way i found i could reduce the Micromarring on this paint was to hit it a very low speed with the white pad/ flex, i'm talking about like speed 2 and no pressure.....but then that doesn't really take care of many swirls. I don't plan on using D151 on Jet Black paint again, it took me too long with this AIO Detail so i'm going to try out HD Speed and Megs #66 next time.

I think you have found a good nugget of knowledge here... and it is exactly why I will not give the customer an AIO option if they have troubles with pricing of a one-step polish when dealing with a dark/ black base color. That nugget of information is- the technology and/ or make up of AIOs typically do not allow the final finish to pass a critical eye and even if it does... you can never be sure that the wax component of the AIO did not hide some marring on the black base color. The only way to know is to strip the panel... and that defeats what you are doing from a time/ price perspective. Like you, I learned this through experience and it was a very valuable exercise. AIO polishes on dark base colors, in my opinion, will inevitably make the 'job' longer if you care anything about the product you are revealing to the customer. Dedicated polishes will cut better and finish better with little guess work after the test spot.

To be sure, there are detailers who have no problems working AIOs, daily, on their customer's dark/ black cars. And I am NOT judging them... every scenario is different and every detailer's market is different... you have to do, what you have to do, hopefully, in an ethical manner. But for me, this is one area an AIO is not worth it and I do quite a bit of AIO work. I think you would be better served just using a finishing polish... it could save you a lot of heartache on dark/ black base colors.

If I were to choose one AIO product that could have the best potential to finish down on dark/ black base colors it would be HD Speed.

 

[Migue]

I think you have found a good nugget of knowledge here... and it is exactly why I will not give the customer an AIO option if they have troubles with pricing of a one-step polish when dealing with a dark/ black base color. That nugget of information is- the technology and/ or make up of AIOs typically do not allow the final finish to pass a critical eye and even if it does... you can never be sure that the wax component of the AIO did not hide some marring on the black base color. The only way to know is to strip the panel... and that defeats what you are doing from a time/ price perspective. Like you, I learned this through experience and it was a very valuable exercise. AIO polishes on dark base colors, in my opinion, will inevitably make the 'job' longer if you care anything about the product you are revealing to the customer. Dedicated polishes will cut better and finish better with little guess work after the test spot.

To be sure, there are detailers who have no problems working AIOs, daily, on their customer's dark/ black cars. And I am NOT judging them... every scenario is different and every detailer's market is different... you have to do, what you have to do, hopefully, in an ethical manner. But for me, this is one area an AIO is not worth it and I do quite a bit of AIO work. I think you would be better served just using a finishing polish... it could save you a lot of heartache on dark/ black base colors.

If I were to choose one AIO product that could have the best potential to finish down on dark/ black base colors it would be HD Speed.

I agree completely, i might have to come back and redo this vehicle(just purchased HD Speed today and should arrive in the mail in 2 days), overall it looks pretty good to the average eye, but i noticed some hazing on the paint ( i was only able to get a very small section inspected with the sun's light as it was cloudy/overcast all day). Depending on how Speed works if i end up re-doing the vehicle, i will have to reconsider offering an AIO service on dark/black finishes from now on.

I know that to the client it may look good, but it just really bothers me knowing that it's not to my standards due to any micromarring/hazing, so it will be something that i will have to go with a dedicated finishing polish and LSP instead from now on. Good thing is that it's my co-worker's vehicle, so when she gets back from out of town and drives it to work, i'll be able to inspect again/further.

I've already accepted that i pretty much "lost" $ on this one, but i want to make sure that it's to the customers' standards according to what they're paying, also this customer has a great network($) and could be a great window of opportunity for future detailing jobs.

 

[Accumulator]

Yes, however, I see some products being called an AIO and paint cleaner - such as Klasse....What's really weird for me is that a lot of the AIO/paint cleaning products seem to leave protection behind.....These products are sometimes used before applying another protective product on top of them. I would have thought it was odd because doesn't the surface need to be fairly bare in order to apply an LSP?

IMO, the whole "apply LSP to bare paint" might get a bit overstated here at Autopia.

One of the things that make an AIO a true "ALL in one" is the protection that they leave behind. You could sorta think of a Paint Cleaner as "an AIO without the AIO's protection".

That protection is usually minimal to say the least. Some AIOs, like Klasse, are specifically designed to be part of a multi-step system and the "matching" LSP is 100% comptatible with what the AIO leaves behind. It's just nice that the (MINIMAL) stuff KAIO leaves behind seems compatible with most LSPs.

While we here at autopia might think that a separate LSP step is just a normal part of the process, a lot of people will happily skip any step that isn't absolutely necessary.

And while we Autopians might look down our noses at "Cleaner Wax"es, the diff between an AIO and a Cleaner Wax is a mighty fine line. IMO the primary diff between them is that Cleaner Wax implies a natural wax protection (and that might not be the case anyhow) whereas AIOs are generally thought of as leaving behind synthetic LSPs that we might not think of as "waxes".

 

[Dellinger]

I agree completely, i might have to come back and redo this vehicle(just purchased HD Speed today and should arrive in the mail in 2 days), overall it looks pretty good to the average eye, but i noticed some hazing on the paint ( i was only able to get a very small section inspected with the sun's light as it was cloudy/overcast all day). Depending on how Speed works if i end up re-doing the vehicle, i will have to reconsider offering an AIO service on dark/black finishes from now on.

I know that to the client it may look good, but it just really bothers me knowing that it's not to my standards due to any micromarring/hazing, so it will be something that i will have to go with a dedicated finishing polish and LSP instead from now on. Good thing is that it's my co-worker's vehicle, so when she gets back from out of town and drives it to work, i'll be able to inspect again/further.

I've already accepted that i pretty much "lost" $ on this one, but i want to make sure that it's to the customers' standards according to what they're paying, also this customer has a great network($) and could be a great window of opportunity for future detailing jobs.

This is what it's all about. You tried something, that in theory, should have worked out. It didn't work out to 'your standards'. And you are planning to change it up. The $ lost, in actuality, is not $ lost. It was a transaction cost associated with learning.

You found out, through your own trial and error, that maybe a product (or genre of product) isn't solving or remedying what it could have or possibly should have. You sought to have a thought experiment online... which takes some gusto because people and/ or detailers will judge you based on what you are trying to accomplish with what products and they will remember who you are and think of you as a 'hack.' I was once afraid to post these things but I quickly came to the realization... those people don't pay my bills. And as long as I am being upfront and honest to both the customer and Jesus Christ through my business dealings... then I am not a 'hack', I am an honest business man. Some customers just aren't going to go for correction type prices every time and thus an AIO can make sense. You just have to know where they make sense for you and your customers. I just want to congratulate you on asking the hard questions, using your common sense on what the paint was telling you, and in the end... figuring this out on your own.

Also, you are doing the right thing by detailing vehicles, 'to your standard.' Now, don't go overboard and think, "...well I gotta correct every vehicle even if I'm not being paid." But use your good sense to find what the customer really wants. If it's AIO work... it's AIO work and price they want. Deliver that... but do as you are doing... ensure the product finishes. I don't speak of any swirl or defect removal when talking about AIO's with customers. I plainly tell them... "After decon, the product will further clean the paint and make it shiny with the possibility that very shallow, very fine defects will be filled. It will have the possibility of 8 weeks of protection." Obviously there's more to it than that but those talking points are the meat and potatoes.

In my mind, If the AIO I end up using happens to remove some slight wash marring- cool... very minor swirls- cool... that's just icing on the cake. If it doesn't... I never said it would and the customer should not expect it... so 'no biggie.' If they wanted defect removal... they should have elected to spend the money for a one or two step process.