What is the OBJECTIVE MEASURE of a good LSP???

[MiVor]

I was watching some youtube video's about various LSP product performances/complaints and in most cases (often with some god awful rap music) there was only a hose pouring water on a hood to show beading or sheeting.
It caused me to wonder...what exactly IS the definitive OBJECTIVE measure of an LSP. Is it water beading, sheeting, depth of shine, mirror like reflection? And how is durability really measured. Is it when beading/sheeting is reduced or shine/reflection becomes reduced? If it's beading, is it just beading or the size and/or shape of beads?
Or is it merely some SUBJECTIVE opinion of any or all of those things? What are your thoughts?

(Note: The photos represent one coat of Duragloss 601/105 followed by 2 coats of 601/111, hood also has a topper of DG Aquawax.)

 

[Bunky]

It is something you have to ultimately decide for yourself. I would think the LSP provides two functions: protection and appearance improvement.

Given some LSP's do not bead much but sheet, the better measure is does it change characteristics over time (bead less, less slick, sheet less, appearance changes, etc) after the initial application.

For durability, it can be hard to assess comparisons since some cars are garage kept, around environmental effects (salt spray, tree drizzle, etc), whether you use a "wax" (something that promotes beading) car wash, post-wash detailer, etc.

One idea is to take some popular product, use it for yourself and then try to calibrate your impressions.

 

[PA DETAILER]

For me it is....

1. Ease of application.
2. WOW factor. Gloss etc....
3. Durability.

Seems beading as always been the yardstick to judge a LSP.

 

[JHL88]

Above all I believe it is how easy the vehicle is to clean (or stays clean for that matter) after that LSP has been applied.

 

[PA DETAILER]

above all i believe it is how easy the vehicle is to clean (or stays clean for that matter) after that lsp has been applied.

very good point!

 

[PA DETAILER]

:rain:



Thats a shot of HM in the morning after a rain.

 

[MiVor]

Above all I believe it is how easy the vehicle is to clean (or stays clean for that matter) after that LSP has been applied.

Good point. I've often wondered, what's so good about beads as when the sun dries 'em up, yer left with ugly little dust rings! Seems that in some ways the best LSP is something that nothing sticks to....like a umbrella or shield above the ride. That's what we need....force field technology (lol).

 

[Accumulator]

It is something you have to ultimately decide for yourself..

Right. Even when choosing between "objective criteria", you still have subjectivity in that different, well....subjects...will assign different values to various considerations.

I'm primarily about protection (including dirt-shedding during the wash), durability, and ease use both for refreshing and doing spot-correction.

The "staying clean between washes" is nice, and FK1000P seems to excell at this to the point that I sometimes go *ages* between washes. Funny, I use LSPs that bead, and I'm never bothered by any of the issues that people talk about...after a rain they always look OK, and if I pressure-rinse with DI water they basically look just-washed to any non-Autopian. It's that "nothing sticks to it" effect.

 

[MiVor]

I'm also more into protection and durability (thinking ahead to winter) than show car shine. Oh I want it to look nice, but protection is a prime objective. Since I bought the truck I've been noticing a lot of older trucks and where they are rusting through. The bottoms of doors, rocker panels, tailgate bottoms and around fender wells are all prime targets it seems. Unlined beds are another problem area. Some might say that 8 years or so around here and a rust bucket is what you get. Maybe that's true for average (or less) care but I wanna do better than that!

 

[pwaug]

Same here--more into protection and durability. Not just in the winter, but at this time of year protection from bird bombs, tree sap etc.

 

[Riff]

My measure is:

Do I like the way it makes the paint look? If yes, then it's a good LSP.

 

[rlmccarty2000]

My measure is shine. If it doesn't shine, who cares if it beads? You could coat you car with a good grease and it would bead or sheet water, but it might not shine.

 

[Accumulator]

MiVor- I'd get some rust prevention going on your truck if you see others of its kind that have serious rust issues. That "bottom of door" rust is the sort of thing you simply have to address before it gets going, shouldn't take more than a few hours. Rocker and wheel well rust is usually just people not washing the salt out every few days, easy enough to head off.

 

[Accumulator]

Heh heh...I'm feeling like stirring this thread up a little:

You folks who are talking about it "looking the way [you] want" and other generalized appearance criteria aren't addressing the Thread's "OBJECTIVE MEASURE" topic It's a lot harder to answer MiVor's actual inquiry!

"Objective" according to whom?!? How you gonna measure it? Even just coming up with a list of basically objective factors is a little challenging.

 

[E-Jag]

The objective measure of a good LSP is one which does whatever YOU want it to do, well. For me, that's appearance - deep and wet. And I'll be danged if I'm going to pay $70 or more to get it. I can make Scrooge look like a philanthropist, but if I fool around with a few layers of paint cleaner, 105, 111 and/or 845, followed by an application of AquaWax every other wash, my red car about glows in the dark. Each one of those products does what I want it to do. And, of course, there are other "objective measures" for other folks but, reduced to it's basics, if it does what YOU want it to do it's a good LSP.

 

[MiVor]

MiVor- I'd get some rust prevention going on your truck if you see others of its kind that have serious rust issues. That "bottom of door" rust is the sort of thing you simply have to address before it gets going, shouldn't take more than a few hours. Rocker and wheel well rust is usually just people not washing the salt out every few days, easy enough to head off.

As I've written in other threads, when I bought the truck I got Auto Armor rust proofing and undercoating so I'm ahead of you there. I've also done some research on Fluid Film and am planning some work there. But as you mention, I'll be sure to stay on top of a good LSP for protection into winter as well as getting/keeping the salt off as best I can....and it will be easier these twilight days as she isn't a daily driver.

 

[MiVor]

Heh heh...I'm feeling like stirring this thread up a little:

You folks who are talking about it "looking the way [you] want" and other generalized appearance criteria aren't addressing the Thread's "OBJECTIVE MEASURE" topic It's a lot harder to answer MiVor's actual inquiry!

"Objective" according to whom?!? How you gonna measure it? Even just coming up with a list of basically objective factors is a little challenging.

Yeah, as I mentioned in many youtube video's I watched, the 'objective measure' seemed to be a hose and water to show beading or sheeting....at least I think because many had no dialog, just a bad sound track! So the pseudo standard measure is repelling water. I suppose it's a somewhat fair measure as the LSP's ability to repel water also gives it some ability to repel the goo, doo and grime that forces us to wash more often.
In the case of beading, sheeting, or shine, it's still somewhat the subjective eye of the beholder.

 

[Loach]

So far, water beading is the best indicator that there is without a doubt still a layer of product that is forcing the water to be repelled from the surface. But it doesn't necessarily tell you how well protected the paint actually is. For example, it doesn't tell you how effective any UV protection in that product actually is. We still have to place some level of trust in the claims of the manufacturers because aside from water beading, actual durability is anyone's best guess as far as I'm concerned. What if the product is still protecting the paint even though it looks as if the beading has completely died out? The only way to know for sure is to measure the individual layer of product with a device accurate enough to measure wax/sealant thickness at the nanometer level, and I haven't seen anyone perform measurements like that for years, and only on freshly applied waxes and sealants on silicon wafers. See this testing here: Thickness of wax layers? - Detailing World

Many products bead well after the cure period but their surface tension dies out quickly after rinsing or washing. Some retain their incredibly tight beading and fast water sheeting characteristics throughout extended washes and rinses - these products are generally known to be more durable by users - Collinite for example. Others don't have impressive beading and are lower surface tension "sheeting" based products from the get go, Meguiar's Paint Protect and ICE Shine Lock Sealant that I've recently tested behaved this way. Yet they are advertised to have a full year of "durability". You'll even find coatings like this, many of them have a high surface tension and others don't and have less impressive beading from the start.

A good LSP is subjective. You need to find the product that gives you the characteristics that you personally want to see. Maybe you don't care much for water beading and ease of application, gloss and smoothness is your highest priority. Or maybe aggressive and durable water beading is your highest priority. I really like tight beading products because in my experience and testing I find that even if a product has a small amount of water repellency, then it will produce similar levels of hard water spotting if you're parked next a hard water source compared to a product that beads water tighter. The spotting will just be in different shapes, either tight beads or larger oblonged shaped beads. Durable tight water beading gives me the impression that the product is still protecting well and that it's not being easily rinsed or washed away by weekly washes or rainstorms. Once a product develops that slower flatter sheeting behavior (which mimics unprotected clearcoat), in my head I'm left guessing whether there's protection or not.

 

[LostHighway]

Everything cited so far, while perfectly good reasons to like or dislike a LSP, are subjective measures. To qualify as an objective measurement you need several pieces:
An agreed definition of terms so everyone has the same idea of what you're measuring and how to measure it.
It has to be quantifiable
The measurement needs to be repeatable and independent of the observer, i.e. multiple observers need to be able to come to the same result/conclusion.

I've never used one but the gloss meters like the one Paul Dalton uses (RHO I believe) might qualify as an objective measure although that probably measures prep work more than the LSP itself. Still, it should allow someone to determine an objective measurement of how much, if any, alteration in gloss is the result of applying the LSP.

 

[MiVor]

Everything cited so far, while perfectly good reasons to like or dislike a LSP, are subjective measures. To qualify as an objective measurement you need several pieces:
An agreed definition of terms so everyone has the same idea of what you're measuring and how to measure it.
It has to be quantifiable
The measurement needs to be repeatable and independent of the observer, i.e. multiple observers need to be able to come to the same result/conclusion.

I've never used one but the gloss meters like the one Paul Dalton uses (RHO I believe) might qualify as an objective measure although that probably measures prep work more than the LSP itself. Still, it should allow someone to determine an objective measurement of how much, if any, alteration in gloss is the result of applying the LSP.

First, thanks for defining 'objective'...I guess I should have done that in my first post. However, I think a gloss meter may not tell the whole story. If'when we speak of a 'good LSP', as you mention, I think (off the top of my head) there are at least four (4) criteria: Ease of application, gloss/shine, protection, and durability/longevity....

1) Does it go on (and buff off as required) with relative ease?
2) Does it produce the desired appearance (gloss/shine/reflection)?
3) Does it protect against bugs, acid rain, bird bombs, road salt, industrial fallout?
4) Does it last a sufficient amount of time (whatever that is)?

In reality, I'm afraid that there is no true objective measure for LSP products so we must take product reviews (and youtube video's) with a grain of salt in that we're seeing/hearing a subjective opinion of one or more of the above criteria.

Footnote: I remember one year (many years ago now) at the state fair, guys were selling a 'miracle auto polish' (a powder you worked into a paste with water). To prove it, they would 'wax' a hood on display, splash and light some lighter fluid to show that the paint was protected. Most of the crowd wouldn't stop to think that heat rises and the panel got no warmer than on a summers day! Oh they spritzed water on it too, but what LSP doesn't bead water right after it's applied? I can't say their sales routine was totally dishonest, but it was right on the line.

Edit: In 20/20 hindsight perhaps a 5th criteria of 'cost effectiveness' is also worth consideration?