Am I Tripping over small stuff here?

ShaneB said:
I worded that poorly. I wasn't implying sidewall damage can be repaired. I meant that as they would of removed the tire to replace it with a new one in that case.

If you don't mind me asking, what is improper about plugging a tire? I've used them a few times and never had a single issue as a result. Just curious if there is a side effect I'm unaware of
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It actually dates back to the introduction of the steel belted radial, and like you I've never had a problem with a plug either.

Plugs used to be exactly that, a smooth rubber plug inserted into the hole with a gun. When steel belted radials were introduced because of the way the tires flex those plugs of old would get literally sheared off by the steel belts and viola! your hole just came back. Liability obviously. Now the current generation of plugs are pretty much a tarry fiber laced string of snot and they bond in the tire but I think the old school thought remains. Besides, why plug it when you can charge more for a dismount, patch, then mount and balance?

New generations I guess are even worse. I have a 2009 Challenger as a garage ornament and they don't come with a spare, it comes with a can of fix a flat and a compressor. But what they don't tell you is the fix a flat trashes the TPMS sensor now you're not only patching but replacing a $152 sensor. So a screw in a tire is $200
 
Ccrew said:
It actually dates back to the introduction of the steel belted radial, and like you I've never had a problem with a plug either.

Plugs used to be exactly that, a smooth rubber plug inserted into the hole with a gun. When steel belted radials were introduced because of the way the tires flex those plugs of old would get literally sheared off by the steel belts and viola! your hole just came back. Liability obviously. Now the current generation of plugs are pretty much a tarry fiber laced string of snot and they bond in the tire but I think the old school thought remains. Besides, why plug it when you can charge more for a dismount, patch, then mount and balance?
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That makes sense. The only plugs I have seen/used are the fibrous, gooey ones that you paint rubber snot all over before inserting it into the tire.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I thought the main reason was because a patch from the inside can't get blown out of the hole; they go into a little more detail here: Tire Tech Information - Flat Tire Repairs
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Interesting article.. But it gets kinda odd when it says patch don't plug then there's this paragraph:

"Additionally, any repair that doesn't completely fill the path the object took through the tire is incomplete. While a patch on the inside of the tire reseals the innerliner, it does not fill the path of the puncture. This will allow moisture to reach the steel belts and/or the casing cords causing them to rust or deteriorate."
 
Ccrew said:
Interesting article.. But it gets kinda odd when it says patch don't plug then there's this paragraph:

"Additionally, any repair that doesn't completely fill the path the object took through the tire is incomplete. While a patch on the inside of the tire reseals the innerliner, it does not fill the path of the puncture. This will allow moisture to reach the steel belts and/or the casing cords causing them to rust or deteriorate."
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They're saying that you have to do the flat patch from the inside AND also plug the hole. They also mention (what any place doing a repair from the inside does) is that you can use a combined patch/plug (they refer to it as a mushroom-shaped object, I'll call it a t-shape). So it goes in from the inside, bonds to the (prepared) inner wall of the tire, and sticks through the hole to the outside, with the excess being cut off flush with the tread.

I know when they patch from the inside they scuff/clean the surface for a good bond. I guess this is making me laugh a little because there's a jillion people on this forum who wouldn't put a sealant on their paint without meticulous prep for fear the sealant won't bond, but some of you will put a plug in a dirty hole in a tire that your life depends on.

Honestly, I know people that swear by plugging from the outside, but I've never done it--I'm not being judgmental here, I'm just saying that the industry-standard repair is to do it from the inside. Maybe I'm being stupid in believing that the inner layer of the tire is the non-permeable part that keeps the air in and you have to seal that from the inside, and maybe I'm drinking the coolaid believing that a plug could get blown out while a patch can't. I guess I'm also lucky to not get flats that often.
 
Wow this topic blew up. Lotta good info though.

On the topic of the whole cleaning/prepping part. When plugging a tire you have a small rough file that you run through the hole to clean/rough the surface for the plug to bond to. So there is a clean/prepped surface in the repair.

I have no solid evidence of this. But the way I see it is the average car tire is inflated anywhere from 30-40psi. If you've ever inserted one of those plugs you know it takes a LOT more than 30 pounds of pressure to insert. So I highly doubt that a plug could be blown out. Add in the rubber cement and that thing isn't moving.

I can see both sides of the argument though. I've never used a patch from the inside so I may be somewhat biased. But whatever works that you're comfortable with is what's important
 
ShaneB said:
I have no solid evidence of this. But the way I see it is the average car tire is inflated anywhere from 30-40psi. If you've ever inserted one of those plugs you know it takes a LOT more than 30 pounds of pressure to insert. So I highly doubt that a plug could be blown out. Add in the rubber cement and that thing isn't moving.
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Yeah, you've got temperature, flex, pressure, centrifugal force. Maybe you're right the whole patch/plug argument is just the tire shops trying to get one over on all of us. I'm just not sure I would want my wife driving 80 mph on the way to work (not that she would ever do that :rolleyes: ) and have a tire suddenly depressurize because a non-recommended repair was done to her tire. I dunno.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Yeah, you've got temperature, flex, pressure, centrifugal force. Maybe you're right the whole patch/plug argument is just the tire shops trying to get one over on all of us. I'm just not sure I would want my wife driving 80 mph on the way to work (not that she would ever do that :rolleyes: ) and have a tire suddenly depressurize because a non-recommended repair was done to her tire. I dunno.
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I'm sorry, but that's certainly FUD. What you'd have if the plug came out would be a hole the size of the reamer used before the plug was inserted ie: not an explosive failure. If it's that uncertain then by your accounts best just buying a new tire when it gets a hole. Because ya know, that plug may still come out of the patched and plugged tire if you didn't use the right amount of unicorn snot ya know. :).
 
I was still fixing cars 20 years ago when the industry went to the internal patch / plug or just a patch.

That being said, I'll always plug a tire externally first. Why? See all the "Tire Shop Ruined my Wheel" threads. Even though a plug may not be the best, it's easy, can be done without dismounting the tire (or wheel), and I can do it myself on the road if need be.

I've been pretty lucky not having flats in a long time., also I have a Black Jack kit and air compressor with me on the road.

I've also plugged like a zillion tires in my life without any catastrophe. Yes, they may not always hold - but neither do plugs.
 
Ccrew said:
I'm sorry, but that's certainly FUD. What you'd have if the plug came out would be a hole the size of the reamer used before the plug was inserted ie: not an explosive failure. If it's that uncertain then by your accounts best just buying a new tire when it gets a hole. Because ya know, that plug may still come out of the patched and plugged tire if you didn't use the right amount of unicorn snot ya know. :).
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How long do you think it takes to depressurize a tire through a 1/4" hole? A few seconds, maybe 10 at the outside, I would estimate. I've had tires go flat in a few minutes with the piercing object still in the hole. You know, where I've heard the slapping from the object and pulled over and by the time I figured out what was going on the tire was flat.

And there certainly are people who won't repair their tires but will just get a new one. I have a tire that was professionally repaired (see above, that believe it or not had an L-style hex key stuck in it) that now has a slow leak, that I haven't gotten to the bottom of yet.
 
Swanicyouth said:
I was still fixing cars 20 years ago when the industry went to the internal patch / plug or just a patch.

That being said, I'll always plug a tire externally first. Why? See all the "Tire Shop Ruined my Wheel" threads. Even though a plug may not be the best, it's easy, can be done without dismounting the tire (or wheel), and I can do it myself on the road if need be.

I've been pretty lucky not having flats in a long time., also I have a Black Jack kit and air compressor with me on the road.

I've also plugged like a zillion tires in my life without any catastrophe. Yes, they may not always hold - but neither do plugs.
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I'm presuming you meant "patches". I knew you would be along to call me or the other guy an idiot. You know, it's fine if it's you or me or Shane or Shawn do whatever the frig we want to our own tires. It's a little different when we start putting wives, girlfriends, children, parents, or people who pay us to put their safety into our hands in that situation.

I remember your thread where you took the 12 yo spare from your Pathfinder and started using it and half the people here (or AGO, wherever) were planning your funeral, and I said it was a bunch of BS you'd be fine. As I said, there's a difference in the risks you expose yourself to, and what you expose other people to that you are responsible for, in one way or another.

It's all relative, I could get a plug in my tire and be killed 5 minutes later from someone going through a red light. Maybe a plug is fine (as I've said, I've known people who swear by them and Swanic is a pretty sensible person), I'm lucky I don't have to get flats fixed too often and I take them to my tire place and let them patch it and have no problems (except for the one I mentioned, which could be something new stuck in the tire, but I haven't found it yet).

And at that I think we've talked this one to death...which I guess means this thread will go on for another 6 pages.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'm presuming you meant "patches". I knew you would be along to call me or the other guy an idiot. You know, it's fine if it's you or me or Shane or Shawn do whatever the frig we want to our own tires. It's a little different when we start putting wives, girlfriends, children, parents, or people who pay us to put their safety into our hands in that situation.

I remember your thread where you took the 12 yo spare from your Pathfinder and started using it and half the people here (or AGO, wherever) were planning your funeral, and I said it was a bunch of BS you'd be fine. As I said, there's a difference in the risks you expose yourself to, and what you expose other people to that you are responsible for, in one way or another.

It's all relative, I could get a plug in my tire and be killed 5 minutes later from someone going through a red light. Maybe a plug is fine (as I've said, I've known people who swear by them and Swanic is a pretty sensible person), I'm lucky I don't have to get flats fixed too often and I take them to my tire place and let them patch it and have no problems (except for the one I mentioned, which could be something new stuck in the tire, but I haven't found it yet).

And at that I think we've talked this one to death...which I guess means this thread will go on for another 6 pages.
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Setec,

I never called anyone an idiot. I just said what I do and why I do it.

Believe me, if I was up for calling out idiots - you'd prolly be last in line.

BTW, that old tire held up fine until I replaced the set.
 
I think I would have been upset at the damage, certainly the damage on the outside that is visible from the exterior. but things happen to us every day of our lives that cause us to get frustrated, upset, etc...and you have pick and choose which ones are true battles, and which ones are simply life happening. the stress you put on yourself as a result of a small mishap is often more damaging than the mishap itself.
 
Swanicyouth said:
Setec,

I never called anyone an idiot. I just said what I do and why I do it.

Believe me, if I was up for calling out idiots - you'd prolly be last in line.

BTW, that old tire held up fine until I replaced the set.
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Sorry, I meant that in the context of the guy driving down the highway and anyone that's driving slower than him is an "idiot" and anyone driving faster is a "lunatic". I remember that tire lasted for you, and I was driving at the time on an entire set that was 10 years old. And if I didn't say it, I've never (personally) patched or plugged a tire. So those of you that have certainly have the edge over me in hands-on experience. The bottom line is, and this is clouded in this liability-soaked world, everybody has to accept the risk of things as a form of informed consent.
 
Let's not forget about being happy the tire shop didn't damage your rims with a proper repair. Only to wonder what that big pot hole was....suddenly a tire rolls by.
He failed to tighten the lug nuts.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Here a pretty balanced view: Should you patch your tire or plug your tire?
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Good read, and pretty much sums up the direction this thread turned

I'll add that I've personally plugged my own tires twice, on two different cars, one I don't have anymore and the other is going on about 15k miles since plugging with zero issues. And that's driving on Michigan roads so it gets abused, a lot.

Patch/plug/replace? Go with whatever you're comfortable with
 
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