ca.detailchick
New member
Would love to see a video of that David Fermani!That would be awesome!
POLL: How long is your average prep time?
- Thread starter David Fermani
- Start date
Nth Degree
New member
Really depends on the vehicle and how bad it is. Some wheels will simply eat up time. Door jambs that haven't been cleaned in years is different from ones that can be cleaned with a basic ONR wipe. I would say I typically spend 2-3 hours. Taping on some vehicles can be time consuming as well.
The Driver
Detailers Workshop
I agree with this, marring should not be an issue if polishing is key. Being that marring is the finest of all imperfections an also the most visible, I actually prefer it and sometimes induce it on very fine work cars so I can see the area's I've covered far more clearly.
Beemerboy
Just One More Coat
If we are talking about the outside of the vehicle only. By myself I can prep the car for polishing in an hour to hour and half. The plus and minus is the size and condition. That's not saying that it hasn't taken me longer and in a rare case shorter.
That said years back it took me longer, time, experience and improved technique / processes coupled with R&D on better chemicals have lessen that time.
That said years back it took me longer, time, experience and improved technique / processes coupled with R&D on better chemicals have lessen that time.
Richie Carbone
New member
Much longer than the times you have listed.
I charge by the hour and depending upon the condition of the vehicle when it comes will determine the hours needed to get it to a high standard.
I don't cut corners as I am not a production type detailer.
I charge by the hour and depending upon the condition of the vehicle when it comes will determine the hours needed to get it to a high standard.
I don't cut corners as I am not a production type detailer.
I agree. Some cars take an hour, some take 4 hours. It's a case by case basis for me. It always helps to have the right tools/products for the job as well.
Accumulator
Well-known member
I suspect that some of us define "marring" differently...to me, it's any kind of below-surface, "scratch/swirl"-type defect that could be anything from the lightest of holograms to a deep gouge that's well into the metal/fiberglass/etc.
And while there are different degrees of marring, I sure wouldn't want to induce anything more severe than the given starting point lest it require that more abrasion be required. Heh heh, if I found out that somebody induced marring on one of my vehicles there'd be Hell to pay.
And while there are different degrees of marring, I sure wouldn't want to induce anything more severe than the given starting point lest it require that more abrasion be required. Heh heh, if I found out that somebody induced marring on one of my vehicles there'd be Hell to pay.
The Driver
Detailers Workshop
Marring to be specific is the light almost dotted orange peel look you get from light abrasion, usually done from clay bar or a poly mitt. Anything thats deeper then a scratch is either a rid, gouge, fracture or flat out failure. I've never heard of marring that was more severe then a scratch.
Notice the dotting below the light source... that is marring.
Types
Notice the dotting below the light source... that is marring.
Types
silver2kws6
New member
depends on whats going to happen. Winter i dont put as much effort into the minor details like body seams... but now i feel like i should. Spring time prep 2-3 hours because i skimp other times of the year.
I definitely have spiderwebbing on my white paint. So next year its a total redo taking my time and then just keeping it clean from there. lots of paint cleaning before polishing thanks to Mikes article on this site.
I definitely have spiderwebbing on my white paint. So next year its a total redo taking my time and then just keeping it clean from there. lots of paint cleaning before polishing thanks to Mikes article on this site.
Accumulator
Well-known member
The Driver- Guess you and I will have to agree-to-disagree about the definition of "marring". I'm gonna stick with the ages-old definition that's used in many contexts besides detailing. Eh, I know I know...I can be a pendatic SOB when it comes to languages :redface:
At least now I understand what you meant, thanks for explaining.
At least now I understand what you meant, thanks for explaining.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
1 person does all my prepping. We have a dedicated wash bay and this is all this person does all day long. Everything he needs is just a few steps away. He gets at least 8-10 complete preps done each day as well.
Things that can affect your overall times are as follows:
**Extent to which you clean your wheels. (faces vs barrels vs. behind spokes)
Like I already mentioned, depending on the wheel AND the client's expectations, this aspect can dramatically affect your total touch time.
**Chemicals used to clean wheels. (acid vs APC vs Iron Remover)
Hands down acid based cleaners take a fraction of the time to work than ANY other wheel cleaner. Most times agitation on the outer wheel face isn't even required. Light agitation to the wheel barrel breaks up years of dirt instantly. Follow up with your pressure washer and the results are quicker/better.
**Level of decontamination (clay towel vs clay vs Iron Remover vs both)
Unless a client is wanting a 110% contaminant free finish, a clay towel with a good lube will make your paint finish super smooth which is the most important attribute. Some people get really carried away with their contamination process doing extensive clay barring and then using an iron remover after. Unless there's a major contaminant build up, this could be overkill.
**Drying of your vehicle after washing
Now this could either save you or cost you a lot of time. We water blade our windows and let our cars drip dry. And sometimes we even water blade the entire car depending. Many people I'm sure spend way too long making sure the vehicle is totally dry before starting anything. To me, this is a major waste of time on a complete detail (inside & out). The key is to get the *bulk* of the water off the car to avoid possible water spots and then go right to detailing the interior. Once you're finished with the interior, the exterior will be dry. It makes no sense to dry parts of a vehicle (rocker/lower doors/lower bumpers) when there's no chance that the sun will cause spotting to these parts due to angle.
**Water pressure (garden hose vs power washer) - engines, wheels, wheel wells & door jambs
Hands down a quality pressure washer saves you time and provides much greater cleaning power on all aspects of the wash. We let APC dwell for several minutes on the jambs, engines & wheel wells. In most cases when we blast them with the pressure washer, all the grime is already loosened by the APC and comes right off. I see some people using fancy brushes in their jambs and engine compartments and wonder just how necessary this is?
**Methods of washing (foaming vs pre-rinse)
In my opinion foaming a car wastes time and money. If a vehicle is that greasy, you'd be much better off pre-soaking with a paint safe APC. Soap doesn't provide much cleaning power on heavily soiled vehicles anyways. If you can take advantage of a pressure washer, a *quick* blast to the heavy build up will provide much greater cleaning advantages than allowing foam to dwell on a car. And I also notice that some people rinse their vehicles multiple times throughout the prep process. A good pre-rinse and final rinse is really all that is needed. No need to wash down 1/2 the car then rinse and repeat. Especially if your environment is prone to water spots. Keep the soap on there.
To drill into how we do things I prepared a quick step by step of our process:
1- Pre-rinse heavy dirt/grease from exterior, engine, wheels & wheel wells
2- Pre-soak engine, jambs, wheel wells, rockers & front bumper w/APC
3-Acid wash wheels & hand scrub wheel wells & tires
4-Power wash engine
5-Power wash door jambs
6-Hand wash exterior with MF towel as well as jambs & underside of hood
7-Rinse complete vehicle
8-Clay towel with Waterless Wash solution
9-Leaf blow critical engine components
10-Dress engine
11-Water blade as needed
Hopefully these processes can save detailers some time in the prep bay. Another thing that could help is the implementation of a low water wash depending on the vehicle and how dirty it is. you really need to analyze the time you spend and how unnecessary some of the things you do can effect your time. Yes, some of these processes are directed towards a high volume environment, but if you can achieve the end overall result with less time, less water & chemical use then you are ahead of the curve.
Things that can affect your overall times are as follows:
**Extent to which you clean your wheels. (faces vs barrels vs. behind spokes)
Like I already mentioned, depending on the wheel AND the client's expectations, this aspect can dramatically affect your total touch time.
**Chemicals used to clean wheels. (acid vs APC vs Iron Remover)
Hands down acid based cleaners take a fraction of the time to work than ANY other wheel cleaner. Most times agitation on the outer wheel face isn't even required. Light agitation to the wheel barrel breaks up years of dirt instantly. Follow up with your pressure washer and the results are quicker/better.
**Level of decontamination (clay towel vs clay vs Iron Remover vs both)
Unless a client is wanting a 110% contaminant free finish, a clay towel with a good lube will make your paint finish super smooth which is the most important attribute. Some people get really carried away with their contamination process doing extensive clay barring and then using an iron remover after. Unless there's a major contaminant build up, this could be overkill.
**Drying of your vehicle after washing
Now this could either save you or cost you a lot of time. We water blade our windows and let our cars drip dry. And sometimes we even water blade the entire car depending. Many people I'm sure spend way too long making sure the vehicle is totally dry before starting anything. To me, this is a major waste of time on a complete detail (inside & out). The key is to get the *bulk* of the water off the car to avoid possible water spots and then go right to detailing the interior. Once you're finished with the interior, the exterior will be dry. It makes no sense to dry parts of a vehicle (rocker/lower doors/lower bumpers) when there's no chance that the sun will cause spotting to these parts due to angle.
**Water pressure (garden hose vs power washer) - engines, wheels, wheel wells & door jambs
Hands down a quality pressure washer saves you time and provides much greater cleaning power on all aspects of the wash. We let APC dwell for several minutes on the jambs, engines & wheel wells. In most cases when we blast them with the pressure washer, all the grime is already loosened by the APC and comes right off. I see some people using fancy brushes in their jambs and engine compartments and wonder just how necessary this is?
**Methods of washing (foaming vs pre-rinse)
In my opinion foaming a car wastes time and money. If a vehicle is that greasy, you'd be much better off pre-soaking with a paint safe APC. Soap doesn't provide much cleaning power on heavily soiled vehicles anyways. If you can take advantage of a pressure washer, a *quick* blast to the heavy build up will provide much greater cleaning advantages than allowing foam to dwell on a car. And I also notice that some people rinse their vehicles multiple times throughout the prep process. A good pre-rinse and final rinse is really all that is needed. No need to wash down 1/2 the car then rinse and repeat. Especially if your environment is prone to water spots. Keep the soap on there.
To drill into how we do things I prepared a quick step by step of our process:
1- Pre-rinse heavy dirt/grease from exterior, engine, wheels & wheel wells
2- Pre-soak engine, jambs, wheel wells, rockers & front bumper w/APC
3-Acid wash wheels & hand scrub wheel wells & tires
4-Power wash engine
5-Power wash door jambs
6-Hand wash exterior with MF towel as well as jambs & underside of hood
7-Rinse complete vehicle
8-Clay towel with Waterless Wash solution
9-Leaf blow critical engine components
10-Dress engine
11-Water blade as needed
Hopefully these processes can save detailers some time in the prep bay. Another thing that could help is the implementation of a low water wash depending on the vehicle and how dirty it is. you really need to analyze the time you spend and how unnecessary some of the things you do can effect your time. Yes, some of these processes are directed towards a high volume environment, but if you can achieve the end overall result with less time, less water & chemical use then you are ahead of the curve.
House of Wax
Active member
Very interesting post david leaving me with a lot to think about. Still seems like an awful lot of work to knock out in 30-45 minutes.
House of Wax
Active member
What wheel acid are you guys using?
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
I use 3D Wheel Acid, but any locally bought acid should work. 3D doesn't like to ship Acid. I buy it by the drum along with other cleaners. Maybe reach out to your local Ardex dealer and try their Attack acid.
Again, my times are average. We get some pretty dirty full sized vehicles that require much more time in the prep bay, but we also get our share of easy ones too. Most (and I'll generalize a little) high end vehicles that are just a few years old don't have all that much heavy grease/dirt build up and clean up really easy. Climate/location also plays a huge factor too. Cars driven through winter elements are much worse than southern vehicles from a prep standpoint.
Again, my times are average. We get some pretty dirty full sized vehicles that require much more time in the prep bay, but we also get our share of easy ones too. Most (and I'll generalize a little) high end vehicles that are just a few years old don't have all that much heavy grease/dirt build up and clean up really easy. Climate/location also plays a huge factor too. Cars driven through winter elements are much worse than southern vehicles from a prep standpoint.
House of Wax
Active member
I've been thinking about this all morning and here's a bit from your earlier post that makes a huge difference:
This is where I probably waste a lot of time simply because of what I have to work with. If I do a two bucket wash it gets done in my driveway that has no shade and our water is fairly hard. I waste a lot of time keeping the car wet while washing and then immediately thoroughly drying to prevent nasty water spots. If I had a shop to work in I wouldn't have to worry about it nearly as much.
I also can't help but wonder how much time I blow on little things that your average customer never notices.
This is where I probably waste a lot of time simply because of what I have to work with. If I do a two bucket wash it gets done in my driveway that has no shade and our water is fairly hard. I waste a lot of time keeping the car wet while washing and then immediately thoroughly drying to prevent nasty water spots. If I had a shop to work in I wouldn't have to worry about it nearly as much.
I also can't help but wonder how much time I blow on little things that your average customer never notices.
Accumulator
Well-known member
David Fermani- "Good water" can be, uhm....relative. How do you define it in your case?
I can sometimes go without full drying if I use the CRS, but not always. My softened water (minus the CRS) isn't good enough for that.
Oh, and heh heh....nice to see you being Autopian-Heretical, admitting to using a CWB ^_^ While I'm always ranting against them, I went all hypocritical earlier this year and used mine a couple of times (luckily without doing any damage).
House of Wax- Doing it in the driveway must pose a whole lot of challenges! Let alone with hard water.
I can sometimes go without full drying if I use the CRS, but not always. My softened water (minus the CRS) isn't good enough for that.
Oh, and heh heh....nice to see you being Autopian-Heretical, admitting to using a CWB ^_^ While I'm always ranting against them, I went all hypocritical earlier this year and used mine a couple of times (luckily without doing any damage).
House of Wax- Doing it in the driveway must pose a whole lot of challenges! Let alone with hard water.
WAXOFF
New member
I'm usually a minimum of 2-3 hours depending on the size.
House of Wax
Active member
It certainly can be, especially in the hot summer months. I've been moving more and more towards doing the wheels and wheel wells first with the buckets and pressure washer and then pulling it in the garage to do the rest of the vehicle with a rinseless wash when possible.
Dellinger
New member
David F.,
Interesting post. I get where you are coming from... really, I do. However, there are a few items where I'm left scratching my head. Namely, it's the pressure washing the jambs... I have seen other detailers 'hang' big beach towels over the doors and pressure rinse jambs. Still, if you are going to vacuum after and water happens to saturate or enter the carpet next to the step plate... well, it makes life harder getting the carpet adjacent to the step plate clean. AND, as we all know, those areas of carpet are usually trashed or the dirtiest of all the carpet except, say the areas near the pedals. Also, even if it isn't saturated, when vacuuming this hypothetically damp area... well it "looks clean" but the water that has impregnated the carpet next to the step plate looks clean because the water darkens the color of the fabric.
Secondly, I have never seen APC dissolve anything + pressure rinsing. Maybe it's me and my area (and it very well could be... lot's of rain in the winter just saturates any kind of seam or jamb with filth.)
Thirdly, wheel acid, while a very nice product under certain circumstances, is great for chrome... but I have seen some weird results on wheels even factory painted. So I usually defer to this product when the substrate is chrome or chrome clad. Wheel acid for me also dries super fast and if the wheel is heavily contaminated... it flash dries. And I mix ALL my chemicals with distilled water so... water PH shouldn't be a problem here.
Fourthly, how do you get textured plastic/ rubber seals clean? Granted, the customer isn't likely to notice when it is dressed BUT even after I go over these areas with a wash mitt (turns black from material degradation transfer) I will hit it with 10:1 APC and a fairly stiff brush and black is still pouring off (mainly rubber seals but some trim as well) which indicates a wash mitt/ car soap isn't enough. Very few dressings have a lengthy time so I like the trim/rubber to be as clean as possible for durability of the following dressing.
Just some questions I had. Not calling you out or anything because my level of detailing doesn't even remotely approach yours so confrontation is not my aim. Just genuinely interested regarding your take on my comments.
Huge thanks for your post. Very thought provoking.
Best,
-Gabe
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
For a prep job on a complete detail, what's the reason/need for 2 buckets? Especially if you're powerwashing 1st as it drops off all the harmful dirt.
As far as keeping the car wet, there's really not a need for this prior to the final rinse. Leaving soap on the paint prevents water spots.
And also, try to pay attention to how often you're actually dunking your mit into your bucket. It's not like it's super critical to make sure every wash stroke is filled with wet lather. One dunk should easily do the roof and all the glass on 1 side.
I define good water as water that doesn't cause water spotting if left on the surface to dry. Your water has to be pretty horrible if it leaves spots that won't come off during the polishing step.
And while we're on the topic of water and drying, I'm all for using the towel that soaks up as much water as possible. That even means cotton (yes, I said cotton). Again, any marring that is a result will easily polish out within 1 pass with the lightest of polishes. Save you precious towels for drying perfected paint finishes. Not ones that are about to be detailed.
Hanging towels to prevent wetness is total overkill. We powerwash the entire door opening from top to bottom and side to side without getting any threatening bit of wetness in the car. We actually focus on blasting out all the sand/debris that gets trapped within the weather stripping too during the prep wash phase. Once that debris dries, it's much harder to clean. The only thing that I tell my prepper to watch out for is if water gets on door trim switches and/or seat controls. Besides that, you're not going to hurt a trim panel, carpeting or seats if a little water drips land on them. Remember, these components are going to get cleaned during the interior process that is about to start immediatley after the prep. The biggest thing to learn about washing door jambs is the direction in which you spray your pressure. Especially for trucks/hatches. Keeping the angle away from interior is key.
I don't think I ever said anything about dissolving. APC (with proper dwell time) loosens up even the heaviest of dirt & grime so when you follow with a heavy jet of water if gets flushed away. Anything that *might* be left can be followed up with some agitation with a wet towel/mit.
We detail every car imaginable. From Fords to Ferraris, Pontiacs to Porsches and we use wheel acid on pretty much every one except the ones with carbon brakes and Aston Martins as the wheel finish on them is super vulnerable to even some APCs. We're not letting acid dry on the wheel either and do 1 wheel at a time. It's water based, so I can't see it flashing faster than a APC unless you're washing a hot wheel which is big no-no for all cleaners. What's the rationale for using distilled water with chemicals? I've never heard of this before and can't imagine it compromising a chemical?
As I mentioned above, we focus on the seals, weather stripping during the prep phase. These parts clean easily after they're pre-soaked with APC and blasted clean. Any remaining sand will get blown out while it's still wet as we start the interior blowing it out.