These three polishes are fairly new and getting some good reviews. The one thing that I find interesting is that people are saying these polishes are as aggressive as the pad you are using. For example you can use a cutting pad and remove defects or use a polishing or finishing pad and get a ready to wax finish. So you only need the one polish and some pads. Well all polishes are more aggressive with a cutting pad than they are with a polishing pad or finishing pad, this is nothing new. My concern is using these polishes often. Any polish that is aggressive enough to remove significant defects should not be used on a regular basis. It may finish nice similar to a super fine polish like FPI but it has much more bite if can remove defects and should only be used like you would use DACP or PI III RC. What do people who are using these three products think about this? How comfortable are you using these polishes on a regular basis as a pre wax prep like you would use FPI? FPI is so light you can use it often without risking your clear. DACP on the other hand should only be used when lighter polishes have been tried and couldn't cut it. These new polishes apparently do the job of both these polishes.
Zaino, Mothers, and Optimum Polishes
- Thread starter stevet
- Start date
Illusion said:
What's new is the degree to which the aggressiveness changes. Its quite extreme. I've only tried MPP, but I believe OP is an equivalent. I have no info on Zaino.
MPP doesn't dust, and can take out major defects with a cutting pad, then use it with a green pad to finish off. It can be worked for ages without drying or dusting, and leaves a good finish...absolutely no marring with any pad.
If used with a light pad it won't do as much correcting, thus won't take off as much paint.
It my main polish now. If I want a higher gloss I use FP, but otherwise, my other polishes are rarely employed.
If I just wanted to use a prewax polish, I'd use either SFX3, FP, or 1Z MP...only because they'd result in a higher gloss, not because MPP will remove too much paint.
The thing is if I used FP with a cutting pad it wouldn't remove severe defects because it doesn't contain heavy abrasives. Thats also why it leaves a great finish. The Mothers and Optimum have to contain some aggressive abrasives to remove defects so I think they would be too aggressive for regular use. I think they would be more appropriate as replacements for IP and DACP. I would use them in place of those and if they finish as nice as reported it would be a one step process. That sounds like what your doing.
imported_memnuts
New member
By increasing the aggressiveness of a mild polish by using an aggressive pad (cutting or wool) does not negate the polish's mild polishing ability and clearcoat safeness when used by hand or PC with a polishing or finishing pad.
Therefore, polishes like FP, Zaino PC Fusion, 1Z MP, Sonus and Pinnacle paint cleanser, Meg #9, WG and BF polishes and AIO can and should be be uses chronically (spot repairs) or 2 to 3 times a year (entire vehicle along with claying) for mild oxidation and very mild surface marring repair with a non-aggressive PC/hand protocol.
A cleanser wax or sealant like NXT (very mild cleansing ability) can be very clearcoat detrimental if applied chronically using a cutting pad. These products are made to be used when needed and if applied properly are completely clearcoat safe.
An example of changing the application technique but using the same media would be the comparison of using a old polyester t-shirt :nono and a chenille MF natural cotton wash rag with the same washing solution. Guess which protocol would eventually marr and wear down the finish. The washing solution is the same but the media used to apply the solution is different. One aggressive (t-shirt) the other soft and better suited for the job. Do we blame the washing solution for increased aggressive or the error in judgement?
Mild polishes/cleansers are not products one uses every week or month but maybe 2-3 times a year for a daily driver. Any need for increase usage of these products should be investigated on why.
Washing technique?
QD'ing a dirty surface?
Protectant not effective for environmental conditions (i.e. acid rain, smog) exposing finish to these types of elements?
Final polish used is "filling/hiding" rather than correcting, causing frequency re-appearance. Etc. Etc.
The ability of a mild polish to be versatile enough to increase aggressiveness by pad selection is a great time saver. Slap on a cutting pad for a particularly rough spot, repair blemish using same polish and complete job by just changing back to the least aggressive pad needed to do the job. :cooleek:
Therefore, polishes like FP, Zaino PC Fusion, 1Z MP, Sonus and Pinnacle paint cleanser, Meg #9, WG and BF polishes and AIO can and should be be uses chronically (spot repairs) or 2 to 3 times a year (entire vehicle along with claying) for mild oxidation and very mild surface marring repair with a non-aggressive PC/hand protocol.
A cleanser wax or sealant like NXT (very mild cleansing ability) can be very clearcoat detrimental if applied chronically using a cutting pad. These products are made to be used when needed and if applied properly are completely clearcoat safe.
An example of changing the application technique but using the same media would be the comparison of using a old polyester t-shirt :nono and a chenille MF natural cotton wash rag with the same washing solution. Guess which protocol would eventually marr and wear down the finish. The washing solution is the same but the media used to apply the solution is different. One aggressive (t-shirt) the other soft and better suited for the job. Do we blame the washing solution for increased aggressive or the error in judgement?
Mild polishes/cleansers are not products one uses every week or month but maybe 2-3 times a year for a daily driver. Any need for increase usage of these products should be investigated on why.
Washing technique?
QD'ing a dirty surface?
Protectant not effective for environmental conditions (i.e. acid rain, smog) exposing finish to these types of elements?
Final polish used is "filling/hiding" rather than correcting, causing frequency re-appearance. Etc. Etc.
The ability of a mild polish to be versatile enough to increase aggressiveness by pad selection is a great time saver. Slap on a cutting pad for a particularly rough spot, repair blemish using same polish and complete job by just changing back to the least aggressive pad needed to do the job. :cooleek:
BillyBarou
New member
My favorite polishes are the SSR line from Poorboys. I prefer these to Sonus and Megs polishes. I will try to test the Zaino polish soon as I usually find that line to have great performance.
Megs polishes generally don't fare as well in the sun as Poorboys in my experience.
Megs polishes generally don't fare as well in the sun as Poorboys in my experience.
Anthony O.
New member
This is all determined on the amount of heat and friction that is applied along with the polish. You can burnish your paint fairly nicely with a rotary, polishing pad and a pasty mixture of water and cornstarch! Years ago we would add cornstarch to Meguairs #5 and it would make for a decent cleaner/glaze.......darn wanna-be chemical mixers 
So if I use Optimum Polish with a large GEM orbital it would not do much in the way of correction (paint leveling) but it would leave a nice, marr free finish on a car with paint in good shape. Now the more heat and friction that is added then the paint leveling ability also increases this though can only go so far unless the product is designed to be a "spectrum" type polish, like those discussed here (Optimum MPP and Fusion).
If I were to take Menzerna Powergloss or Poorboy's SSR3 and use it with a finishing pad it would not behave at all like a finishing product, not even if I am using a 100 ppi foam finishing pad. The abrasives will only break down so much before the product breaks down and flashes off. So a cutting product does not benefit much from a finer pad but a mild polish will benefit from a cutting pad to a farther extent than a cutting agent with a finishing pad. Did any of that make sense? I sure hope so cause I am not proof reading it :rofl
In other words, if you use these new polishes with a mild application process, by hand or orbital, then you would be removing very little paint, even over years of polishing (considering one polishes their car 2-3 times a year), at least not enough to cause failure.
Anthony
So if I use Optimum Polish with a large GEM orbital it would not do much in the way of correction (paint leveling) but it would leave a nice, marr free finish on a car with paint in good shape. Now the more heat and friction that is added then the paint leveling ability also increases this though can only go so far unless the product is designed to be a "spectrum" type polish, like those discussed here (Optimum MPP and Fusion).
If I were to take Menzerna Powergloss or Poorboy's SSR3 and use it with a finishing pad it would not behave at all like a finishing product, not even if I am using a 100 ppi foam finishing pad. The abrasives will only break down so much before the product breaks down and flashes off. So a cutting product does not benefit much from a finer pad but a mild polish will benefit from a cutting pad to a farther extent than a cutting agent with a finishing pad. Did any of that make sense? I sure hope so cause I am not proof reading it :rofl
In other words, if you use these new polishes with a mild application process, by hand or orbital, then you would be removing very little paint, even over years of polishing (considering one polishes their car 2-3 times a year), at least not enough to cause failure.
Anthony
imported_memnuts
New member
Well stated Anthony.
Made perfect sense and thanks for addressing this question from the mechanical application angle (heat, pressure, duration, application tools). :xyxthumbs
Made perfect sense and thanks for addressing this question from the mechanical application angle (heat, pressure, duration, application tools). :xyxthumbs
chevyguy28
New member
blkz28,
What about something like Sonus SFX3 or AIO? They seem to have almost no cutting ability, especially if you use them by hand or use a finishing pad. Include products like GEPC in that. Theoretically, could you uses these products every month with no determent, assuming you use a mild method of application?
The other confusion I'm having is over ZPC. I've heard numerous reports that it starts off as aggressive as Menzerna IP or something similar. While I agree that method of application changes it's level of abrasiveness, it doesn't seem to be something that can be used as SFX3. Perhaps if I used it with a finishing pad, its abrasivness level would go way down. Other reports say ZPC is very mild.
BTW, I recently tested PO85RD with a finishing pad, and it did seem to clear up very minor marring. I'm looking for something like ZPC or PO85RD in terms of leaving minimal material behind on the paint, but rather burnishes.
- J
What about something like Sonus SFX3 or AIO? They seem to have almost no cutting ability, especially if you use them by hand or use a finishing pad. Include products like GEPC in that. Theoretically, could you uses these products every month with no determent, assuming you use a mild method of application?
The other confusion I'm having is over ZPC. I've heard numerous reports that it starts off as aggressive as Menzerna IP or something similar. While I agree that method of application changes it's level of abrasiveness, it doesn't seem to be something that can be used as SFX3. Perhaps if I used it with a finishing pad, its abrasivness level would go way down. Other reports say ZPC is very mild.
BTW, I recently tested PO85RD with a finishing pad, and it did seem to clear up very minor marring. I'm looking for something like ZPC or PO85RD in terms of leaving minimal material behind on the paint, but rather burnishes.
- J
Anthony Orosco said:
Anthony and BlkZ28Conv,
Thanks for the detailed responses. I understand about polishing media changing the aggressiveness of a product. I have been using a PC for a few years now. What I'm trying to find out is what is it about these new polishes that allow for such a wide range in cut by changing pads. Most products will become more or less abrasive if you change the pad but there are limits unless, as Anthony stated, the product is designed to be a "spectrum" type product. What exactly is different about the abrasives in these products that makes them a "spectrum" type polish? Are they an advanced type of diminishing abrasive or is it the size of the abrasive or something else?
Anthony O.
New member
Well without giving away the Optimum formula, and I can only comment on Optimum as I have not used the other polishes mentioned, and I know only a slight fraction about Optimum make-up in general, but it has to do with the TYPE of abrasive chosen for Opt Polish and then the OILS that lubricate those abrasives. They work in conjunction, a symbiotic relationship if one cares to define it as such. I am sure that MPP and Fusion also have this in mind when developing their products.
The philosophy behind Optimum is that there should only be one product (i.e. one polish, one cleaner, dressing, etc.) and also from a chemist point of view, the fewer the chemicals/ingedients the better the product or results. I had at one time thought opposite, that if a product claimed it had lots of "this or that" then it must be better than a product that contains just a few ingredients. Ever heard of the Dri Wash N Guard claims about how many ingredients they have?? :think:
I may try the new Fushion and MPP as they sound interesting.
Anthony
The philosophy behind Optimum is that there should only be one product (i.e. one polish, one cleaner, dressing, etc.) and also from a chemist point of view, the fewer the chemicals/ingedients the better the product or results. I had at one time thought opposite, that if a product claimed it had lots of "this or that" then it must be better than a product that contains just a few ingredients. Ever heard of the Dri Wash N Guard claims about how many ingredients they have?? :think:
I may try the new Fushion and MPP as they sound interesting.
Anthony
chevyguy28
New member
Anthony,
Do all polishes have some kind of lubricant in them to some degree? Guess I'll just have to try ZPC anyway, but I'm trying to figure out if Menzerna polishes like PO85RD leave the surface less Zaino or sealant ready than ZPC. In that past I have put Zaino on immediately after PO85RD and didn't notice any degredation in durability, but I didn't let it go untouched for 9 months either. Now I do an alcohol wipedown just in case.
- J
Do all polishes have some kind of lubricant in them to some degree? Guess I'll just have to try ZPC anyway, but I'm trying to figure out if Menzerna polishes like PO85RD leave the surface less Zaino or sealant ready than ZPC. In that past I have put Zaino on immediately after PO85RD and didn't notice any degredation in durability, but I didn't let it go untouched for 9 months either. Now I do an alcohol wipedown just in case.
- J
They sound like great polishes to have and use when I have some significant defects to remove. Use them instead of IP or PG and remove defects in one step than go to a LSP. But with very minor marring or just a need to burnish I have doubts that they are as mild as a FPI or something similar. I would feel I was being more aggressive than need be even though the finish it's leaving is great. I will have to get one and try it out.
Anthony O.
New member
JustinTRW said:
They all have some form of lubrication. The general rule I follow is that if the product of your choice is body shop safe then it should need no further prep work before you use a sealant.
Anthony
chevyguy28
New member
Anthony Orosco said:
If that is the case, then I think too much fuss has been made about ZPC being Zaino ready, when many others have existed for years, but from other brands. But that probably cannot be determined without knowing the chemistry behind everything. Not to knock ZPC or anything, but there seems to be some slight exaggeration going on. I'm sure it's a fine polish on its own right.
On the other hand, I'm not even sure what body shop safe means. It could mean that a simple wash would be sufficient to remove anything would cause bonding issues. Or maybe it means you can go to the next step right away.
- J
imported_memnuts
New member
Hi Illusion and JustinTRW,
From my knowledge and experience with the Z-PC is has abrasives that are very advanced in terms of their ability to actually "diminish" completely. I am not privy to the chemistry (dissolution, friction, heat, agitation, etc) behind how these abrasives components function. I do know that Z-PC was designed with a "cleansing/mild polishing" starting point.
Z-PC Fusion is an extremely mild diminishing (low spectrum starting point) polish that will not eliminate moderate blemishes without mechanical augmentation (pad selection, pressure, heat generation (rotary), etc ).
Z-PC is not a all-in-one severe swirl removal product. It is a finishing polish that has a spectrum of activity leading to the paint's presentation after a normal digressive (level of abrasiveness) polishing regimen. In my case I may start with Menzerna IP (dark colors) or sometimes DACP (light colors) and than finish off with the Z-PC (prior to Z-PC I would use products like 1Z-MP, FP and AIO).
Yes, Z-PC is more aggressive than AIO in terms of the starting point of aggressiveness IMHO, but not too the point where any measurable clearcoat is removed when used with a hand or PC (polishing pad) protocol 2-3 times a year. No long term data to support but years of experience have set a gauge of polish aggressive in my head.
Best stated, this is a product that can correct a wide-range of "mild" surface marring, oxidation, non-etched water spottings, old protectant removal, primary polishing step marring without using a filling phase to aid in the project.
Z-PC was created to fill a gap in the Z system - that gap was the need for a "final polish" that will accept Z polishes (protectants) resulting in the elimination of pre-wash or prep-sol-like wipedown and a product that created a prepped finish for maximal bonding of Z protectants.
From my knowledge and experience with the Z-PC is has abrasives that are very advanced in terms of their ability to actually "diminish" completely. I am not privy to the chemistry (dissolution, friction, heat, agitation, etc) behind how these abrasives components function. I do know that Z-PC was designed with a "cleansing/mild polishing" starting point.
Z-PC Fusion is an extremely mild diminishing (low spectrum starting point) polish that will not eliminate moderate blemishes without mechanical augmentation (pad selection, pressure, heat generation (rotary), etc ).
Z-PC is not a all-in-one severe swirl removal product. It is a finishing polish that has a spectrum of activity leading to the paint's presentation after a normal digressive (level of abrasiveness) polishing regimen. In my case I may start with Menzerna IP (dark colors) or sometimes DACP (light colors) and than finish off with the Z-PC (prior to Z-PC I would use products like 1Z-MP, FP and AIO).
Yes, Z-PC is more aggressive than AIO in terms of the starting point of aggressiveness IMHO, but not too the point where any measurable clearcoat is removed when used with a hand or PC (polishing pad) protocol 2-3 times a year. No long term data to support but years of experience have set a gauge of polish aggressive in my head.
Best stated, this is a product that can correct a wide-range of "mild" surface marring, oxidation, non-etched water spottings, old protectant removal, primary polishing step marring without using a filling phase to aid in the project.
Z-PC was created to fill a gap in the Z system - that gap was the need for a "final polish" that will accept Z polishes (protectants) resulting in the elimination of pre-wash or prep-sol-like wipedown and a product that created a prepped finish for maximal bonding of Z protectants.
chevyguy28
New member
Thanks for the reply.
I guess I will just have to buy some even though I have too much polish, and try it out with a finishing pad and see what it removes.
I guess I will just have to buy some even though I have too much polish, and try it out with a finishing pad and see what it removes.
Like Alfisti, I've been very happy with the performance of Mother's Power Polish. I've found it easier to use than the meguiar's 80 series, and to have a longer working time than SSR 2.5 . I still use either the meguiar's or Poorboy's on certain details, but the MPP seems to be more user friendly. I like the fact that i can get it locally, no need to wait for online ordering.
I'll have to try Optimum and Fusion, but so far I have no complaint of MPP. In fact, this redefines the meaning of "novice friendly". You can work it for ages and it won't dust. While already a great performer with the PC, applied via rotary it becomes a potent product. I still consider myself a true novice, as I learned with another "muiltifucntion polish" that is very versatile (Transtar Tri-Cut) but not as easy to use as MPP.