Which products contain excessive silicon?

Wow, this is going to get interesting :grinno:



popcorn2.gif
 
Offenders? Please explain. Just about every glaze/polish/wax has silicone except Menzerna probably. I wouldn't mind knowing either. Body shops product lines usually don't (I think).
 
most silicon based products are going away anyways. My supplier informed at my last drop off that the tire shine we used is phasing out the silicone and by 2010 with all the new government laws going into effect just about anything you got now with silicone will be gone. I still have to look into what laws he's talking about but he's never steered me wrong before.
 
Jakerooni said:
most silicon based products are going away anyways. My supplier informed at my last drop off that the tire shine we used is phasing out the silicone and by 2010 with all the new government laws going into effect just about anything you got now with silicone will be gone. I still have to look into what laws he's talking about but he's never steered me wrong before.
Click to expand...



Sounds like you're talking about silicone oil dressings that have non-VOC compliant solvent carriers in them. That's a bit different than saying that "most" silicone-containing products are going away.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Sounds like you're talking about silicone oil dressings that have non-VOC compliant solvent carriers in them. That's a bit different than saying that "most" silicone-containing products are going away.
Click to expand...





could very well be. Just passing on the info as I hear it. Still gotta dig deeper into it because there are several products I use very loyaly right now he told me were definatly on the chopping block. They are trying to reformulate the current products which some degree of success. However tire shine has not been one of them. Either it looks great but dosen;t last long at all or it just dosen't work like it used to at all.
 
Just about every glaze/polish/wax has silicone except Menzerna probably.
Click to expand...



I have heard there are good and bad types of silicone...I am wondering what the highest level (by volume %, etc.) products with the bad types so we might avoid them. I found this on another forum that was typed by Menzerna:



THE REMOVAL OF SMEAR FROM POLISHED SURFACES

Polishing is a mechanical process. Silicon is a product that has been designed not to be removed by mechanical abrasion. When using Menzerna, to polish surfaces which have been previously treated with silicon, a smear may result. It is important to understand why this occurs.



CAUSE

There are lots of silicon oils on the market. The properties that make silicon so popular with car detailers, and some auto manufacturers, also make it a very difficult product for the polisher to remove. During polishing, the silicon mixes with the excess paint that is being removed from the surface to form a smear.



Can you remove silicon from a clearcoat completely?

It is impossible to remove silicon from a painted surface without using a chemical process so aggressive that it dissolves the paint. Wax and grease removers will chemically remove one layer of silicon off at a time but are unable to completely remove all the silicon. Tests by Dr Michael Hauber at Menzerna using a spectroscope showed the layers become thinner but the silicon remains. Removing silicon completely can take place over time and involves a lengthy process of oxygen, chemicals, time and sunlight.



PREPARATION

If the car has been treated with silicon, use a wax and grease remover to remove as much of the silicon as possible before polishing. You will not be able to remove it all but it helps.



THE MECHANICAL PROCESS

Polishing is a mechanical process. When a silicon-free polish works on the surface of paint it uses aluminium oxide marbles, suspended in water and hydrocarbons and a mechanical process to abrade the surface of the paint down to the level of the bottom of the scratch. Silicon cannot be removed this way. Silicon is removed by a chemical means and is designed to resist being removed by mechanical means. Instead the silicon mixes with the blend of paint dust and polish powder and it creates a smear on the paint.



We should differentiate between swirl marks in the silicon layer and swirl marks in the paint underneath. Some polishes may appear to remove the swirl marks in the paint but are really only working on the layer of silicon. So the swirl marks in the paint itself remain unaffected by the polishing and reappear after a few weeks, as the silicon is being removed by time.



I just wanted to make people aware of this issue and to be careful working with products that contain large amounts of silicon. Also be wary of high solvent content products.
 
Nice info. Now it will be very interesting to make a list of products wich contain/don't contain silicones.
 
Wow, that looks like a mess of bad translation and misleading info for the non-technical. I guess if you believe that, then you will never be able to successfully apply Zaino to a vehicle that has ever had any other LSP on it, because they all contain silicone, unless you sand down to the bare metal and repaint. I don't see where "large amounts" of silicone would have anything to do with it, because there is only a molecular layer of anything on the paint when you are done, so even a small amount of silicone in the product would cause the bad result described.



PS Silicon is an element. It can be found in computer chips and sand (silica), but not in car wax. Silicone is a a man-made chemical.
 
I'd be really careful about accepting any company's writings as gospel, especially about something they say they don't use.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Wow, that looks like a mess of bad translation and misleading info for the non-technical. I guess if you believe that, then you will never be able to successfully apply Zaino to a vehicle that has ever had any other LSP on it, because they all contain silicone, unless you sand down to the bare metal and repaint.
Click to expand...



I think you hit the nail on the head, Mike. This "silicone-is-evil" idea is something that many small producers put forth, in order (I guess) to make their products seem more "special" than the big companies'. Silicone is undesirable (for different reasons) in tire treatments, body shop compounds, etc., but it's a useful component of many/most car product applications.



Todd
 
Newbie here but after reading many threads, my interest in the subject boils down to:



- which products can be safely used around engines (there was an old thread about a TSB from Ford because they had to replace oxygen sensors more frequently in engines dressed with a type of silicone).



- which ones can weaken rubber (may not be as important for tires in daily drivers but for older hoses in the engine or garage queen tires)



- which one are more likely to cause plastics/vinyl to crack (don't know if it was product or uv but the fifteen year old dash on my corolla cracked:( )



(One other concern is the effect on repaint but hopefully reputable body shops have that covered)



I also found an old thread by Lynn (what happened after she sold the 2 jags?) about an NIH database on common household products including auto products:



http://autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/27701-nih-resource-products.html



It's far from complete and some brands are only listed with "proprietary ingredients" but for the products that have more info it's useful to see what kinds of solvents are used in addition to the silicone. The health ratings also included.



Here's the listing on Armor All Tire Foam Protectant which according to this is 50% silicone:

Household Products Database: Health and Safety Information, from the National Library of Medicine



Not a silicone product but ever wondered what's in mop n glo that works on wheel wells, check it out:

Household Products Database: Health and Safety Information, from the National Library of Medicine
 
SilverLexus said:
What is misleading about the information?
Click to expand...
This bit is what I'd like more information on:

Can you remove silicon from a clearcoat completely?

It is impossible to remove silicon from a painted surface without using a chemical process so aggressive that it dissolves the paint. Wax and grease removers will chemically remove one layer of silicon off at a time but are unable to completely remove all the silicon. Tests by Dr Michael Hauber at Menzerna using a spectroscope showed the layers become thinner but the silicon remains. Removing silicon completely can take place over time and involves a lengthy process of oxygen, chemicals, time and sunlight.
Click to expand...

If the silicone can't be removed chemically (Prep-sol or equivalent), seems to me that paint shops would have a lot more problems with repaints.



Tort
 
I read the same info on an Australian website distributing Menzerna. I believe the info comes from Menzerna. Australian International Trade Links Pty Ltd Right at the bottom.



They don't say silicone is bad or 'evil'. They're just trying to explain how to avoid a smearing issue when polishing with Menzerna, which doesn't contain silicone. Contrary to popular opinion, silicone will migrate through the paint as paint is microscopically porous, just as chrome is. This is neither bad, nor good; just a reality.
 
TortoiseAWD said:
This bit is what I'd like more information on:



If the silicone can't be removed chemically (Prep-sol or equivalent), seems to me that paint shops would have a lot more problems with repaints.



Tort
Click to expand...

The statement they make is that they can't remove silicone "completely", just the top layer which allows the repaint to bond.
 
I really don't see the problem with Silicone in products. One guy I know (Who works in a bodyshop, but that's beside the point) said that any product you put on your car that contains Silicone will eat away at the paint. If that were true then why is Megs #26 and Megs #21 so popular? Or any other megs sealant or wax for that matter, i'm pretty sure the majority of them have silicone in there for lube purposes, it says so on the bottle. I've used #26 many times on many different cars and still haven't seen anything except shine and protection- no eating away here.



In either case if Silicone can really eat away at your paint then you better thoroughly wash your hands if you have to run to the toilet during a detail!!



~Albert
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top