What's in stuff?

G

Ghaleon0721

New member
When I go to buy aspirin I pick up a bottle of tylenol and a bottle of the store brand. On the back it lists the ingredients and the quantities. Both bottles have three or four ingredients in them, but I know that the only thing in there that actually helps my headache is acetaminophen (spelling?). I can just look at the quantities in each bottle and determine which is a stronger pain releiver. Pretty simple.



Why can't I do that with detailing products. There is so much discussion about what products work best or which brands are better. And it's all pretty much pointless because no one can agree on anything. I'm not saying the discussions aren't good, I'm just saying that there are too many variables for any of us to ever come to a consensus. Paint type, age, condition, weather, temperature, color, level of care, frequency of washing, lighting, climate, and garages all make it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to identify the BEST product, process, or combination. It all comes down to what works best for YOU.



But even that is almost impossible to determine because there is no way to know exactly what you are using. Going back to my aspirin analogy, I wish I could :



Say "My winters are harsh, so I need something durable"



Then I could find out what chemical(s) offers the most durability, lets call it Ingredient X



Once I found that out, I could compare the amount of Ingredient X in different brands of wax and come to a conclusion.



Does anyone know what is in our detailing products? If so, what does each ingredient do? Which brands use more of which ingredients?



Also, I've tried zillions of different OTC tire dressings and they all look, feel, and smell like baby oil. Has anyone ever used baby oil as a vinyl/rubber dressing? Someone please tell me I'm not paying 6.99 for a 16 oz bottle of baby oil.
 
Interesting post, interesting question. Asprin is a regulated product. It lists ingredients by federal law. They dont have the choice to withold that information.



Since detailing products dont save lives and you generally try not to eat them, we dont disclose what makes them either. But, if you really are very curious, check out:



Chemical Manufacturing - Auto Appearance Chemicals - Formulations - Dow Corning



...there you will see VERY basic formulations -- and when I mean basic I mean basic -- for pretty much any time of auto detailing product. All the way to the bottom you'll see a "Raw Ingredient List" as well, that covers most items used in pretty much all auto chemicals.



To answer your tire dressing question, http://www.dowcorning.com/content/p...Manufacturing&DCWSS=Auto Appearance Chemicals is a basic formula for that. Believe it or not, the bulk cost of it is in the fluids that make it easy to spread or spray on not in the fluids that make it actually gloss. Of course, then again, this is the case for most products unless they are water-based.



Hope this satisfies your urge for knowledge! :-)



-Ben
 
Wow thanks,



This is kind of what I expected. As you said, these are the MOST BASIC formulas. And as it says, you can tweak the formulas to intensify certain effects of the product. Take wax for example, wax can be judged on so many things like:



Ease of Use

Protection

Durability

Shine

Reflection

Dust Accumulation

Cost

Shelf Life

Slickness

and the list goes on.



A wax will contain an ingredient to acheive results for each of the listed criteria. So by comparing the amounts of each ingredient you can determine which wax is more durable for winter or offers better UV protection in warmer climates.



I've just seen too much discussion on here about which product is best and it's all just opinion and speculation. Because the best wax for cars in Boston is not necessarily the best wax for cars in Miami. I just want to find a way that I can identify what characteristics are important to me and then select a product based on that.



I could easily post "What is the best wax for durability?" and get four or five different answers. There may even be a consensus that points to one or two products. But it's all just opinion and speculation. I need someone to tell me WHY a particular wax is the most durable. What's in it that's not in another brand?



Here is a better question that I just thought of. Is there a qualitative way to determine the particular specialty of a car wax. For example, "ease of use". From the documents above, it's obviously pretty easy for a company to add some more of a particular ingredient to make their wax easier to use. If a wax is difficult to use, it means that they left out that ingredient for a reason. Probably to make room for something else that produces some other desireable characteristic (or possibly because they are just cheap). Can we say something like "if a wax is difficult to buff off after 10 minutes, then that means it is bonding to your surface better and will provide better durability"?



I'm just spilling thoughts off of the top of my head. But point is, there is something wrong here. I mean look at us. We are a group of people who care a lot about our cars' condition. Every new member here can't wait to write a post asking the veterans here to critique their detailing products and processes. I saw a post on here about a guy who waxes his mailbox for christ's sake. There isn't a single person among us who can walk through a parking lot without shaking his head at the guy who spent $60,000 on his BMW but won't take a few hours to wash it. We actually feel pain at the sight of excessive cobwebbing. We sympathize with the cars themselves and grow angry with their anonymous owners. We are supposed to have the detailing knowledge. We are supposed to be the Detailing GODS.



Yet we are so ignorant and vulnerable. We rely on manufacturers claims, recommendations from others, and product reviews to guide our detailing decisions.



There has got to be a better way.
 
Wow thanks,



This is kind of what I expected. As you said, these are the MOST BASIC formulas. And as it says, you can tweak the formulas to intensify certain effects of the product. Take wax for example, wax can be judged on so many things like:



Ease of Use

Protection

Durability

Shine

Reflection

Dust Accumulation

Cost

Shelf Life

Slickness

and the list goes on.



A wax will contain an ingredient to acheive results for each of the listed criteria. So by comparing the amounts of each ingredient you can determine which wax is more durable for winter or offers better UV protection in warmer climates.



I've just seen too much discussion on here about which product is best and it's all just opinion and speculation. Because the best wax for cars in Boston is not necessarily the best wax for cars in Miami. I just want to find a way that I can identify what characteristics are important to me and then select a product based on that.



I could easily post "What is the best wax for durability?" and get four or five different answers. There may even be a consensus that points to one or two products. But it's all just opinion and speculation. I need someone to tell me WHY a particular wax is the most durable. What's in it that's not in another brand?



Here is a better question that I just thought of. Is there a qualitative way to determine the particular specialty of a car wax. For example, "ease of use". From the documents above, it's obviously pretty easy for a company to add some more of a particular ingredient to make their wax easier to use. If a wax is difficult to use, it means that they left out that ingredient for a reason. Probably to make room for something else that produces some other desireable characteristic (or possibly because they are just cheap). Can we say something like "if a wax is difficult to buff off after 10 minutes, then that means it is bonding to your surface better and will provide better durability"?



I'm just spilling thoughts off of the top of my head. But point is, there is something wrong here. I mean look at us. We are a group of people who care a lot about our cars' condition. Every new member here can't wait to write a post asking the veterans here to critique their detailing products and processes. I saw a post on here about a guy who waxes his mailbox for christ's sake. There isn't a single person among us who can walk through a parking lot without shaking his head at the guy who spent $60,000 on his BMW but won't take a few hours to wash it. We actually feel pain at the sight of excessive cobwebbing. We sympathize with the cars themselves and grow angry with their anonymous owners. We are supposed to have the detailing knowledge. We are supposed to be the Detailing GODS.



Yet we are so ignorant and vulnerable. We rely on manufacturers claims, recommendations from others, and product reviews to guide our detailing decisions.



There has got to be a better way.
 
See this is where it gets fun. Dow Chemicals is one of numerous manufacturers for chemicals that chemical mixers (that's me) use. A chemical mixer is what all detailing companies are, we just keep screwing around with products until we find the mix that produces the best results. Using one type of fluid from Dow and another fluid of the same name from another manufacturer produces *different* results. Most companies would try to keep their chemicals purchased from one manufacturer to make for better pricing, and then that sacrifices the really good chemicals that each individual manufacturer may have a better handle on than the competitors. Good mixers (cough) rely on chemicals from at least 20 companies to handle a complete detailing product lineup. So even if you know the exact ingredients and mixing procedures, those ingredients themselves are worthless until you know the manufacturer of each chemical.



Then to add to the problem, not even all carnauba is the same. Is it from Brazil like most *think* their carnauba is from, or is it from the better quality carnauba from Africa? (Did I just leak a secret?). Even if it's just from one country, the location the carnauba comes from can have an impact in the quality, impurities and then even heating time.



Of course then if we go to your question "I need someone to tell me WHY a particular wax is the most durable. What's in it that's not in another brand?" -- that leads me to an even more fun and twisted answer. Even if you and I both buy chemicals from the same exact source, our products *will* differ. They will differ because of the process we use to combine those chemicals to a final product..... Let's use a quick example.



A very basic carnabua wax is about 25% carnauba flakes and 70% odorless mineral spirits and 1% pine oil. All you really have to do is head the carnauba in a double boiler and then add pine oil and the mineral spirits and allow it to cool. How long did you cook yours for? A longer cook time allows for a better product, the beta paste wax we are working code name Dream Wax is being cooked for exactly 24 hours each batch. Even if we cook at the same time, what is your temperature? How often do you agitate the heated product?



Having fun yet? :)



-Ben
 
I've been curious of this as well.



I mean, why does my Meg's APC have explicit warnings about the fact it is a severe health hazard and one should be using gloves and mask (either a mask or eye protection, can't remembere which) when using it?!:soscared:



Or what about the 303 AP I use inside? I'm sure I ingest small amounts since I am in contact with the stuff... even though I do wash my hands before eating, I'm sure it still sticks on there.



Same goes with all of us who constantly use waxes, sealants, etc. How much long-term damage (if any) are we doing?
 
paul34 said:
I mean, why does my Meg's APC have explicit warnings about the fact it is a severe health hazard and one should be using gloves and mask (either a mask or eye protection, can't remembere which) when using it?!:soscared:
Click to expand...





Glycol Ether, better known as Butyl Cellosolves
 
...and for that chemical that gbackus is talking about, courtesy of OSHA:



2. Effects on Humans: 2-Ethoxyethanol is an irritant of the eyes and upper respiratory tract. This substance may also cause reproductive effects in occupationally exposed men and women and embryotoxic and teratogenic effects in the offspring of exposed pregnant women. In one instance, a 44-year old female who accidentally ingested approximately 40 milliliters of the substance became vertiginous and unconscious shortly after exposure. Upon examination the individual was found to be cyanotic and had tachypneumonary edema, repeated tonic-clonic spasms, and acetone on her breath [Clayton and Clayton 1982]. A recent study of 73 painters exposed to concentrations ranging from 0 to 80.5 mg/m(3) revealed an increased prevalence of oligospermia and azoospermia, and an increased odds ratio for lower sperm count [Hathaway et al. 1991]. However, this study is of questionable value because of concomitant exposure to other substances.



"an increased odds ratio for lower sperm count"



"an increased odds ratio for lower sperm count"



"an increased odds ratio for lower sperm count"



"an increased odds ratio for lower sperm count"



Hey I didnt make it up, see OSHA: 2-Ethoxyethanol



:)
 
paul34 said:
hum... I guess this is more incentive to use APC less.



LOL
Click to expand...





Or find one free of glycol ethers. I'd suggest a google search for "glycol ether" to find it's pseudonyms, as I'm sure there are at least 4, but may be more. From what I hear, they almost took Glycol Ether's off the market, but heavy lobbying from some chemical manufacturers(can't remember who makes it, but Butyl Cellosolve is a brand name from one of the big chemical manufacturers for a form of Glycol Ether) allowed it to stay on the market.
 
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