What is really in a reflection shot?

Nth Degree

Nth Degree

New member
This is really for those who are newer to the forums but also a good reminder for everyone, particularly those posting their work.
 
 
What is your first thought of this reflection shot?
 

 
 
Does it look wet?  Well, that's because it is.  Look closely at the wiper arm and the paint near it.  This was taken after a stripping wash so the water was clinging to the paint.  The other point to be made here is that the sun is not directly hitting the panel.  
 
In reality, the hood looked very much like the passenger door shown here.
 

 
 
Here is another great reflection shot.
 

 
 
This is the roof of the same black SUV.  Once again, the sun is not hitting the panel as it had already set behind the houses so it is going to look good with very little effort.  This was taken after a one step polish, no LSP.  What do you see in the photo?  Are you seeing the surface of the paint?  No.  Instead of focusing on the paint that is just 2 feet away, the camera is focused on the plane that is roughly 1000 feet away.  
 
 
Don't be fooled by photos that do not show what they claim to show.  More importantly, don't attempt to deceive people by posting photos and claiming a perfect finish.  I will admit to having a lot of photos of my work that do not have sun shots of the final result.  That is largely due to the fact that I am mobile and I often finish after the sun has set.  
 
To honestly show your work or if you are looking to hire a detailer and are looking at photos of their work there should be some photos that show the same spot in the same lighting condition.
 
 
Examples:  
 
 
The 50/50 shot:
 

 

 
 
or 
 
The Before & After:
 
 

 

 

 

 
 
And true sun shots always reveal the most.
 

 
 
For those researching a detailer: remember that you are probably only seeing the photos selected by the detailer that best show their work.  If they only provide a handful of vehicles in their gallery that each has several photos of nothing but final shots in the shade you should proceed with caution; they may not be of the caliber they claim.
 
Nth Degree-


 


This is a really good post!  


 


Thanks for bringing this up because I know I'm new here and most likely display my work poorly or in a way that may make other's feel I'm hiding something... when in reality, it's just because...'I don't know any better'.  Now that's not an excuse but I am working on it and it's why I'm replying.  


 


I wanted to start a thread on this very topic but approach it from another perspective... IE- in what fashion should 50/50's and pre-and-final shots be taken, if a person wants to be honest in displaying their work?


 


Also, readers please review the below list of etiquette for photos...


 


From my research and 'reading-between-the-lines'  it seems the ideal way to display your work through photos are:


(Note:  I stated 'ideal' and realize the following are not always possible)


 


- Before and afters: same time of day, preferably sun


- 50/50's from multiple angles: one with light(s) 45 degrees toward focus area and camera on other side 45 degrees to focal point, and  another shot with light exactly perpendicular to focal point.


- For 'special shots' emphasizing a side mirror housing... camera is set on tri-pod, left untouched, prior to work and after work


 


Can someone confirm, deny, add to this list?  I know it's woefully short.


 


Again, wanting to learn from this thread.


 


Best regards,


-Gabe
 
My wife has the "photogenic eye" in the family. As soon as the weather turns nice, I can't wait to post pics.

Thanks for the tips.
 
This is a touchy subject.....


Is someone a liar or a cheater because they don't have a perfect reflection shot?


I personally don't think so, but there are some on this forum that do.


 


If you post the first picture and say "Hey, look at the perfect finish", this is misleading.


However, if you post the picture and let the viewer assume, are you perpetrating any lies?


 


Fact is, that the public does not know how to tell if their finish is "perfect" or not, they don't


know how to look for swirls.  The first picture will look like a perfect finish to them, even though it was not.  You didn't lie to them, it is their lack of knowledge that is the problem.


 


So, are we responsible for the public not being educated?  Nope.  We can't be responsible for everything.  Is this first reflection shot dishonest?  I don't think so personally, but I can see how others can view it as such. 


 


Personally, I would caption it "Look at how this car looks during the wash process".  If you say that this picture is during a wash, then you are being completely honest, disclosing that it could be wet and that it is not a finished product.  Heck, it is a nice reflection shot.


 


This topic brings up an important point for this forum.  Why should we be held to artificial standards of business that other industries are not held to?  These are completely made up and self enforced, but are they fair?  Would other detailers chastise someone for posting the first picture?  If they did, would it be just?


 


Before you make any decisions, let us look at how other industries do this same exact thing. If you do not think that other sectors take "creative" photos, think again. This is just one sector of marketing. Aside from photo editing by magazines, beauty products and clothes lines, the industry does physical manipulation for many of their shots.  Hamburger joints will actually change the way their burger looks by having a slice cut out of the back so that the meat looks larger in the front.  They also stack the vegetables so that they appear more pronounce. 


 


Is this physical manipulation a lie? Nope it is creative marketing.  The hamburger is still sold with its components intact.  It is still sold with a quarter pound of beef and all of the veggies.  It just doesn't look quite as good as the advertised picture.


 


It is your personal choice to use creative marketing in your advertising.  This is your choice for your business.  Sure, you can disagree with other's choices if they choose to use this type of marketing. In no way is it your right to give other owners a hard time for using these types of photographs just because they are a detailer. 


 


Granted if someone used the first picture, were trying to portray it as a finished reflection and you saw the water on the surface, you could say something.  If you do notice this, is it fair for you to question this business owner on a public forum?  I personally don't think so.  Send them a personal message.  You are not the "Judge Dredd" of the detailing world, and you have zero right to question others business decisions in a way that makes their business look bad.  You could be wrong. Just remember that you are allowed to make these decisions for your business, not make decisions for every other business in the sector.


 


This is part of the attitude that I have seen recently, where some posters garner a "holier than thou" attitude, and assume that their decisions are what every detailer should follow.  We are all allowed to make our own mistakes.  If you view someone as making a mistake, let them know... but do not try toact like you know everything..... there probably are factors that you are not considering.


 


 


 


 


 


In conclusion, this first photograph is a great one.  If someone used this picture as proof of their final product, then they are preparing their customer for disappointment.  If the customer is knowledgeable, then they will see the lack of clear reflection.  Most likely, the customer will never know that their finish is not crystal clear.  Most likely, the finish is better than any one that they had before.  If an owner wants to portray their services "in the best light possible", "with the best shots", and with "creative marketing", then let them.


 


If we start judging on what "MIGHT BE" in that reflection shot, then we become awful cynics.  Just take for example my Click and Brag Corvette.  I admitted that there was no correction done to the surface, so I was not portraying it as a "perfect" shot.  Yet, the only words that I got about the picture was that it had a 10:1 chance of being lackluster.  This is a 91 percent chance of looking bad.  Without looking at the vehicle, why would you assume the worst? Who makes you the judge jury and executioner of rude opinions? 


 


It is not a crime to be nice.  It is not a crime to not assume the worst of marginal pictures.  It is not a crime to use creative marketing.  Even if it was a crime, just because you post in a detailer forum, you definitely are not the police.  You just have an opinion. I can say that if you don't have pictures to prove that it is lackluster, then there "could be" a 10 to 1 chance that you are wrong, and way off base. 


 


If it was my opinion, I would say that the first picture looked great. I would not hesitate to use this in any advertisement.  There was no editing done, I have not claimed that this is anything specific, it is just a picture.  If I said "Get your Car looking like this for 300 dollars", this would be misleading.  Until then, its just a picture.  If customers or other "experts" assume anything, it is their fault for assuming.


 


 


 


Assuming, That's an awfully racist word, isn't it??


 


When you are assuming, you make an ass out of you and ming.


 


 


Overall, good topic because there is much more to a reflection shot than is first obvious.  However the first picture shows how you can not place worth in a business or a workers skills just because of a reflection shot.  It is much more about finished product, as a reflection can be manipulated or misleading.


 


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Dellinger, I wanted to respond directly to your questions.  I think that you are right, as these are the "ideal" times to take shots.  Is it realistic to be able to take shots at the same angle before and after with the sun in the same position?  I personally don't think so, as this can be hours between before and after (unless you do one panel at a time).  Personally, once I get going, I want to finish ...... so this "ideal" qualification is tough for me to fit.


 


I agree with your list completely, as 50/50s are very important, and a tripod is the easiest way to get the same shot at the same angle.  I would also like to add the golden and blue hours.  These are early in the morning and late at night.  While these are not the best for before and after shots, this where you can get the best picture quality.   I personally think that one of the best reflection shots is a sunrise or sunset, and I see them very sparingly. 


 


While before and after shots and 50/50 shots show the improvement to the finish as a product of your service, you should NOT discount shooting to emphasize total beauty of the vehicle. I also do not see the problem with hiding things with your photography.  If there was a long scratch down one side, would you really shoot with this side to the camera?  Would you choose a picture that looked worse, or one that looked better?  I would choose the better one every time, not as trying to disguise bad work, but to portray my work in the best fashion. 
 
Good post o.p. I will always appreciate a nice reflection shot as a glamour shot, but it really doesn't say anything about the true condition of the paint or the work that was done. Hard to beat a good 50/50 for that
 
Great post!!!


 


Reflection shots = glamor shots! They are great for looking at and for giving to the owner, but it no way do they show the quality of work being done.


 


Not focusing the camera on the surface can also give a somewhat false appearance, especially when looking at wet sanding results. Good photographers also knows how to manipulate light and many will use this knowledge to make the subject look better than it would in person, so you really have to be careful when judging ones detailing ability based on after pics or glamor shots.


 


True 50/50 shots like those posted above is where it's at. For other great examples one should look at images from Bob Willis (Auto Concierge), Dave Saunders (DSMS), Jeff McGoveran (gofast908z), and Marc Harris, just to name a few who I've found to take some of the best before an after pics.
 
Ok, I'm going to keep poking and prodding...


 


So in essence, this thread went from 'You should be aware of how to take proper photos when displaying your work...' to 'Reflections shots are rubbish, only use 50/50s with Sun'.


 


Now, I'm ok with that, if the above sentiments are underwriting the fundamental point.


 


But I think there are some more items to flesh out here.  And Mr. Raskovich, I believe, hints on it here...


 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">Good photographers also knows how to manipulate light and many will use this knowledge to make the subject look better than it would in person...


 
</blockquote>


 


Regarding this thought, I'm going to start a new thread as not to sidetrack this post... if anyone is curious or would like to opine it will be in the 'Guide to Detailing' subforum.


 


 


 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'helvetica neue', helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Dellinger, I wanted to respond directly to your questions.  I think that you are right, as these are the "ideal" times to take shots.  Is it realistic to be able to take shots at the same angle before and after with the sun in the same position?  I personally don't think so, as this can be hours between before and after (unless you do one panel at a time).  Personally, once I get going, I want to finish ...... so this "ideal" qualification is tough for me to fit.
<p style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'helvetica neue', helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"> 
<p style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'helvetica neue', helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">I agree with your list completely, as 50/50s are very important, and a tripod is the easiest way to get the same shot at the same angle.  I would also like to add the golden and blue hours.  These are early in the morning and late at night.  While these are not the best for before and after shots, this where you can get the best picture quality.   I personally think that one of the best reflection shots is a sunrise or sunset, and I see them very sparingly. 
<p style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'helvetica neue', helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"> 
<p style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'helvetica neue', helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">While before and after shots and 50/50 shots show the improvement to the finish as a product of your service, you should NOT discount shooting to emphasize total beauty of the vehicle. I also do not see the problem with hiding things with your photography.  If there was a long scratch down one side, would you really shoot with this side to the camera?  Would you choose a picture that looked worse, or one that looked better?  I would choose the better one every time, not as trying to disguise bad work, but to portray my work in the best fashion. 


 
</blockquote>


 


Thank you Will for the feedback!
 
I don't think that this thread went to "reflection shots are rubberish",

I just think that it proposes there is "more than meets the eyes".
 
RaskyR1 said:
Great post!!!


 


Reflection shots = glamor shots! They are great for looking at and for giving to the owner, but it no way do they show the quality of work being done.


.
Click to expand...


 


 


 
House Of Wax said:
Good post o.p. I will always appreciate a nice reflection shot as a glamour shot, but it really doesn't say anything about the true condition of the paint or the work that was done. Hard to beat a good 50/50 for that
Click to expand...


 


I totally agree. There was a guy in CA that always posts reflection shots in his garage thinking its relays some kind of message of accomplishment. I just don't get it? 
 

WillWashesCars said:
This is a really good post. I honestly think it should be stickied.

 
Click to expand...



 


Done! Thanks for the suggestion. 
 
I just wanted to add to this thread and put a pic together showing the progression of the paint correction process.


1800339_253604294807267_1112385460_n.jpg
 
Great post!


 


One of my biggest pet peeves is the reflection shots that are clearly not focused on the painted surface, but the objects that are being reflected.  To give most people the benefit of the doubt, I would say the simply do not know better and are just letting the camera focus where it thinks it is supposed to focus.  Understanding how auto focus works or simply using manual focus is key.


 


 


IMO - as long as the correction process is properly documented, the resulting after shots do not necessarily need to be in direct sunlight as the defect removal has already been proven.  Don't get me wrong, I usually snap a few direct sunlight pictures just for the sake of doing it, but in the after shots, I just want to show off the shiny car for the most part.


 


beforeafter_zpsbf70de97.jpg
 
The problem with reflection shots at times is the camera adjusting the exposure and it looking washed out. Black paint no longer looks black, looks washed out. 


 


Same car


 


proper exposure:


 





 


overexposed, camera didn't properly adjust for the different lighting


 


 
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