Wet Sanding - UPP or PP after?

JasonD

JasonD

New member
Mike,



Accumulator helped me out a little with this already but I completely forgot about the einszett USA forum and would like to get your added input before tackling this job.



I'm about to wet sand using 3M's 2500 grit wet/dry paper, and originally read a how-to article that suggested the use of 3M's Rubbing Compound and Swirl Remover as a follow-up. Can I use UPP and PP instead of the 3M products? I'll be using a PC for the job and will just be repairing small areas, not doing the entire car or anything.
 
If you haven't seen the other thread, my concern was about the waxes in the 1Z products interfering with the touch-up paint's curing.
 
Yes I saw it, thank you very much. I forgot about this forum which is where I should have originally posted anyway.



My biggest concern is UPP just doesn't seem all that aggressive to me. I used it today with a white foam pad on the trunk of a 2002 dark metallic blue BMW 330i to get some light scratches out and it really didn't do anything at all. I worked about a 2x2 area with the proper amount of UPP very slowly for about two minutes before moving on to the next section and the scratches were still there. Don't get me wrong, it looked a whole lot better but not what I was expecting. This only concerns me because I have to ask myself if it can't get these little scratches out how in the world is it going to get all the scratches out from the wet sanding?? By the way, I used a PC on setting 5, and the pad stayed wet the entire time making sure I didn't use the pad for the polishing. So what do you think?
 
JDookie said:
My biggest concern is UPP just doesn't seem all that aggressive to me. I used it today with a white foam pad on the trunk of a 2002 dark metallic blue BMW 330i to get some light scratches out and it really didn't do anything at all. I worked about a 2x2 area with the proper amount of UPP very slowly for about two minutes before moving on to the next section and the scratches were still there.... I have to ask myself if it can't get these little scratches out how in the world is it going to get all the scratches out from the wet sanding?? By the way, I used a PC on setting 5, and the pad stayed wet the entire time making sure I didn't use the pad for the polishing. So what do you think?
Click to expand...



Heh heh, I think maybe Mike had better answer this one :D According to the "official 1Z line" we're *kinda* misusing the Ultra when we use it to remove marring from clearcoats, as I understand it. It works for me, but I'm not sure they recommend it. I *think* it's more for reviving older (single-stage?) paint. Anyhow, the preceding was sorta just a disclaimer, and partially intended to show Mike that I really do listen to what he says.



I found the UPP/EPP to be pretty aggressive compared to the other polishes of its type that I use frequently (like 3M's PI-III RC 05933). I've used it to get marring out of Audi clear, which is almost certainly harder than what you're working on.



Try a cutting pad. Often that really makes *all* the difference. *I* find the PC to be an awfully mild machine for paint correction, so anything you can do to make it more aggressive is gonna help. Even with the Cyclo (and often the rotary), I'll use cutting pads for anything worse than the mildest marring. When you say "scratches", I think "get out the rotary or at least the Cyclo".



Used with an aggressive pad, or with terry by hand, I think the Ultra will do the job, and will also be enough to remove the sanding marks (though you might want to use 3K instead of 2500). But that still leaves us with the "wax question".
 
I'm thinking that the wax isn't going to hurt me at all. The touch up area is already well over 60 days old, so it's as cured as it's ever going to be and I've already put two coats of P21S on it already anyway.



I'd like to see what Mike says about all this, but I'm afraid he's going to say something like you did about it not being intended for this type of project.



I can completely see where you are coming from with making the PC as aggressive as possible. At first, I was very delicate with the way I was using it and always making sure I was using the least aggressive products, but quickly found out that by doing this I was achieving little to no results. I used my cutting pad once, on a heavily oxidized 97' Explorer (UPP) and it came out great, but I realized later that I didn't use enough product and I let the pad cake up without cleaning it, so even though it worked I still didn't get the full benefits of the UPP. I can definitely say that I am learning as I go, and you guys are helping me move along very quickly.



On another note, you are saying that I should step up to 3k grit paper? I bought 2k grit today since it was the finest Pep Boys carries but I will return it if you think the products and methods we have been talking about won't smooth the paint back out.



I agree with you about pulling out the rotary for scratches but that is a machine that I've never used and I have seen too many people completely screw up a paint job with one very quickly. I'm going to keep using my PC until it's completely mastered and then step up to the rotary one day.
 
JDookie- Sounds like you're learning your way around the PC :xyxthumbs



I use a 2,500 grit sanding block for leveling touch-up paint, followed by 3,000 paper. I like to go as mild as I can with wetsanding, and only use the 2,500 block because my painter gave it to me (so it's what I have on hand). 2,000 is just a little coarse, IMO, but others will probably say it's fine.
 
Accumulator,

I'd like to thank you enormously for helping me out here. You've given me some great info.



I am completely convinced now that I need to return the 2k grit paper and get a finer grade. If you haven't read the other post yet, I am leaning towards returning the SMR too since we are thinking that the 1Z products can do the same job except without the fillers. I wish Mike could chime in some time soon here.
 
Sorry guys, long weekend. Even I have to go on vacation once in a while :)



Could only skim this post but I'll sum up my points quickly - all mentioned in other posts before:



1. Can't stress enough: A dual action orbital (porter cable) is a 'finishing tool'. Does not produce nearly enough heat/friction to repair heavy marring or cut. Therefore a cutting pad with an aggressive polish is needed in order to get some cutting done.



2. What does silicone and wax do on curring paintwork?? It prevents the paint from offgassing (releasing solvents) completely. What's the result??



A. Bubbling paint.

B. Paint peels off later.

C. It turns a milky yellowish color.

D. None of the above.



Correct answer: D



The only thing that happens is that it prevents the paint from achieving full depth and gloss. Is this noticeable on tiny sections where paint chips or touch ups were done? Probably not. Is it noticeable on large sections of paintwork. Probably. Therefore, wouldn't worry about the small touch ups that you've done using Extra (Ultra).



3. Extra is great for heavily oxidized paintwork and as a cutting polish. I have used it with a rotary and a foam cutting pad and it's awesome. Anyone who says Extra is not strong enough is not using the right tools.



And the 2% by volume of wax in Extra will not hinder its cutting ability.



Regards,
 
Well, there we go. Another question answered. I guess the only way to go here is to use the orange cutting pad, UPP, and elbow grease!!
 
RatedG- The *cotton* terry will be more aggressive than the MF. I've done some surprising things with Ultra/Extra by hand, but you'll just have to try it and see, what with every situation being different.
 
Thanks. yea I forgot to indicate the condition of my paint, as well. It's an 11 yr old single-stage white. I just purchased the car recently, and assume it has never been properly been polished. Cotton terry, here i come.
 
RatedG said:
Thanks. yea I forgot to indicate ....[that] It's an 11 yr old single-stage white. I just purchased the car recently, and assume it has never been properly been polished. Cotton terry, here i come.
Click to expand...



SS white !! :scared You'd better be prepared to a) work hard, and b) settle for imperfection. Some SS white is so hard you can't do much of anything, even with a *rotary*. Good luck, go slow and see what works/doesn't in small areas before doing the whole car.
 
Mike @Einszett said:
Sorry guys, long weekend. Even I have to go on vacation once in a while :)



Could only skim this post but I'll sum up my points quickly - all mentioned in other posts before:



1. Can't stress enough: A dual action orbital (porter cable) is a 'finishing tool'. Does not produce nearly enough heat/friction to repair heavy marring or cut. Therefore a cutting pad with an aggressive polish is needed in order to get some cutting done.



2. What does silicone and wax do on curring paintwork?? It prevents the paint from offgassing (releasing solvents) completely. What's the result??



A. Bubbling paint.

B. Paint peels off later.

C. It turns a milky yellowish color.

D. None of the above.



Correct answer: D



The only thing that happens is that it prevents the paint from achieving full depth and gloss. Is this noticeable on tiny sections where paint chips or touch ups were done? Probably not. Is it noticeable on large sections of paintwork. Probably. Therefore, wouldn't worry about the small touch ups that you've done using Extra (Ultra).



3. Extra is great for heavily oxidized paintwork and as a cutting polish. I have used it with a rotary and a foam cutting pad and it's awesome. Anyone who says Extra is not strong enough is not using the right tools.



And the 2% by volume of wax in Extra will not hinder its cutting ability.



Regards,
Click to expand...



Hey Mike, I think the UPP works great. I use it by hand and get good results. I have a question about MP is there any abrasives in it or is it just a pre-wax cleaner. I used it today to detail a customers 330ci and it seemed more like a cleaner than polish?? I'm assuming PP contains abrasives and acts more like a polish rather than a cleaner. Thanks for any info.



Steve
 
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