Tried to Duplicate GeekySteve's Test for Abrasiveness in Blackfire.....

And I was successful. I applied the 'original' BF using a foam applicator to a brand new AOL CD, followed it up with a dawn wash and I was able to find a pattern of marring that was consistent with the way I applied the product (which BTW, was not visible until I did the Dawn wash).



However, I'm happy to report that I did the exact same procedure using the "new" Blackfire on another part of the same CD and couldn't find any marring at all. The difference could actually be "felt" because when I was applying the "original" BF, it felt like the applicator was grinding into the CD, similar to the way it feels when applying an SMR to your paint. However, the "new" BF went on smoothly and had a much more slippery feeling to it. Just thought I'd post this small bit of experimentation I did on this slow, boring evening.
 
Wow, interesting. I'm not using BF (now or in the near future) but this is still interesting. Didn't someone say at some point they were only supposed to tweak the polymer content in BF? This finding seems to go against this, implying they did more than that.....
 
Interesting! I'm still waiting for a break in the weather so I can give the new Blackfire I received from Terry a shot.
 
4DSC said:
Wow, interesting. I'm not using BF (now or in the near future) but this is still interesting. Didn't someone say at some point they were only supposed to tweak the polymer content in BF? This finding seems to go against this, implying they did more than that.....

Interesting findings Intermezzo.

4DSC

Tweaking the polymer content could possibly decrease the friction coefficent and lead to less abrasion to the CD. So polymer tweaking is not a misnomer for what was done to the new BF. Let's remember that what may abride a CD may not be abrasive to a car's finish. Such a product would be considered non-abrasive for it proper usage. CMA nor BF stated that BF was non-abrasive when applied to a CD. I have applied the original BF to a non-clearcoated hidden area on one of my cars. No color on applicator. This tells me that BF1 was non-abrasive to my car's finish.So to imply that something else was going on or that someone was trying to mis-represent the revision of their product is ill-conceived and without basis. Let's face it, if the original formula of BF was found to be abrasive and the new new not so. Would it not be to CMA's benefit to stress this point.:nixweiss . If this characteristic never existed beyond the CD test than no need to address.

Until someone points out that a CD's finish is a true example of a vehicle's paint finish in hardness, this test is only good for absolute characteristics of a product. Otherwise this CD test is useless for a products usage in the real world.. a car's finish.

JMO:wavey
 
blkZ28Conv said:
So to imply that something else was going on or that someone was trying to mis-represent the revision of their product is ill-conceived and without basis.



Until someone points out that a CD's finish is a true example of a vehicle's paint finish in hardness, this test is only good for absolute characteristics of a product. Otherwise this CD test is useless for a products usage in the real world.. a car's finish.

JMO:wavey



Oh no, I wasn't trying to imply any wrong-doing by anyone. As a typical Autopian, I can't do a single detail-related thing without blabbing about it here. Since I found Steve's original test so compelling and interesting, I just thought I'd test it out for myself.



Also, although I'm "happy to report" that the new BF didn't cause any marring on the CD, I don't mean to imply that a product containing a mild abrasive is bad for your car. Come on, let's face it... for 99% of the detailing public, a final protectant containing abrasives would actually be better for their cars & yield better results than a final protectant that didn't contain abrasives. But for people like you and me who actually spend more time in prep-work as opposed to applying the final protectant, an abrasive-free product is more appropriate and would actually yield the best results.



I agree with your statement about the CD test, however I don't think I'm ready to totally dismiss it because I do think it provides some insight into the "relative" abrasiveness of a product when compared with other products. I found the difference in marring between Meguiar's #9 vs BF very interesting in GeekySteve's original test.
 
On my conventional Red Mazda, I've used both Blackfire, and Carnaubas. The Blackfire brings up no more color, and infact less color than a couple of Carnauba liquids. Carnauba Paste is the best in that they don't bring up color at all. Can't try the new yet. Temperatures got too cold to try the new Blackfire I just got Saturday.
 
BlkZ28, I was detailing a black IS300 and rubbing DACP around by hand did not yield any paint on the pad however by PC it turned black. YMMV.
 
AlBoston said:
BlkZ28, I was detailing a black IS300 and rubbing DACP around by hand did not yield any paint on the pad however by PC it turned black. YMMV.



Sorry to hear that you went though the clearcoat on that IS300.:(

DACP is an abrasive cleaner and one works this product into the finish to achieve the desired results either by hand or PC( buffing through the clearcoat is not the desired results). Applying a sealant or non-cleaner wax is normally applied with minimal pressure by hand or PC. So my test for the abrasiveness or lack of was done with a real world application technique. I am sure if I rubbed hard and long enough the evaporation of the BF1 and the generation of heat may create some paint removal. The question is why test an unreal scenerio. Most would not apply a sealant, in this case Blackfire 1, and work into the paint to the same extent one would with a cleaning agent. One would use the motion of the PC to spread the sealant with as light of pressure as possible.

Let's no get off into a tangent about the question about the intial version of Blackfire and its paint friendliness. Intermezzo made a very good observation about the differing results of the 2 BF formulations when applied to a CD. His posting of these results are extremely valuable not only in evaluating a new product but also verifying our independent observations of an improvement in this said product. Good job Tony and thanks for sharing this info with us.:wavey
 
AlBoston said:
BlkZ28, I was detailing a black IS300 and rubbing DACP around by hand did not yield any paint on the pad however by PC it turned black. YMMV.
Yikes!!! :scared Yes, that sounds like it broke through the clear to me.... :( :( Sorry to hear about that.



Had someone already worked it over with a rotary or something?





You've made some very good and valid points blkZ28Conv, let's just take this information for what it means: the new BF is even friendlier. :)
 
Intermezzo said:
Dun worry...... I believe the black IS300 that our pal AlBos was working on did not have a clear-coat.
In this day and age there are still cars without clear coat? Bizzaro....
 
blkZ28Conv said:
Interesting findings Intermezzo.

4DSC

Tweaking the polymer content could possibly decrease the friction coefficent and lead to less abrasion to the CD. So polymer tweaking is not a misnomer for what was done to the new BF. Let's remember that what may abride a CD may not be abrasive to a car's finish. Such a product would be considered non-abrasive for it proper usage. CMA nor BF stated that BF was non-abrasive when applied to a CD. I have applied the original BF to a non-clearcoated hidden area on one of my cars. No color on applicator. This tells me that BF1 was non-abrasive to my car's finish.So to imply that something else was going on or that someone was trying to mis-represent the revision of their product is ill-conceived and without basis. Let's face it, if the original formula of BF was found to be abrasive and the new new not so. Would it not be to CMA's benefit to stress this point.:nixweiss . If this characteristic never existed beyond the CD test than no need to address.

Until someone points out that a CD's finish is a true example of a vehicle's paint finish in hardness, this test is only good for absolute characteristics of a product. Otherwise this CD test is useless for a products usage in the real world.. a car's finish.

JMO:wavey



I found out this weekend that the CD Test has validity in the real world. My Blaze Red Mazda has 2 types of paint due to an accident that replaced one fender and hood (base + clearcoat), and the remainder of the vehicle (conventional). When I bought it, the original finish was heavily oxidized and I have worried about getting adequate protection on it since.



About 5 weeks ago I did a Blackfire treatment of the roof by applying 2 coats of the Blackfire Gloss Enhancing Polish, and 3 coats of the original Blackfire Paint Protectant that I had purchased last August. I was not surprised when the Polish brought up color, but was somewhat surprized when color came up on this conventional coat. I was really disappointed 2 weeks later when I put on one more coat. The applicator definitely turned a bright red.



I had similar issues whenever I used liquid Carnaubas. But in retrospect it was stronger staining and left me questioning about using the product in the future. I contacted CMA technical support I was assured that this was normal for red finishes, and to be expected.



I really liked the look of Blackfire however, and so when the newest version came out I ordered it. This weekend I got the opportunity to try it on this car I did so with astonishing results. I did the hood first and since it had a clearcoat nothing unusual happened. I was astonished however when I did the roof and trunk AND ABSOLUTELY NO COLOR CAME UP.



The applicator use was interesting. I used the foam pad supplied by CMA to put on the original Paint Protectant and a microfiber pad. Even though I washed it by hand at least 5 times and twice in the washing machine. Both pads still showed up with lots of red. When I put the product on the hood and trunk not only was there no color transferred to the pad, but it cleaned out the red in the microfiber pad completely and the yellow foam pad is now slightly blue.



It was so clean that I used the same pads on my white Subaru.



On this vehicle the only thing would not stain an applicator pad was Carnauba Paste Waxes. I was greatly relieved when new Blackfire did the same.



I'm still checking durability, but for now, three cheers for the new Blackfire.
 
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