Thoughts on changing my mindset about maintaining my finish?

C

cobrar97

New member
I recently stepped into the realm of coatings (a couple years ago). I`ve come to love the product, and when I recently purchased and new vehicle, it is now the first vehicle I will have had with a coating from Day-1. In the past, my process of maintenance has been wash/dry like usual, to use rinseless wash products (ONR, Ultima, Megs, etc) when it`s not very dirty, and to use QD products to remove slight dust or pollen. And I think many people do these same things. NOW...upon talking to a respected professional about this; I`ve been informed that basically I`m doing everything wrong. I`m trying to change my way of thinking to accept this information and head down a new path in my "process". Take a quick read and see if you agree/disagree with the information. These are the questions I asked and the responses provided:

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Q: Thank you for the great information. Can you please give me more of your thoughts on the following:
I’m not being argumentative…but trying to “change” my way of thinking…and I need good reasons so that my brain understand what I’m doing and why. Your help will get me on the right path.

So you’re saying that washing the vehicle is the only way to remove daily dust and debris? For example…in the early spring when pollen is blowing around like crazy; my perfectly clean vehicle will be coated with yellow by the end of the day. So I need to “wash” it versus “dust and wipe” it? That’s an awful lot of washing. With my dust and wipe process, over time, I may develop the haze that you are referring to, but can’t I just buff that out and reapply the coating? Then my vehicle looks great all the time versus only when I’ve washed it for a few hours. What if I simply polished with Sonax Perfect Finish once a year and re-coated? And then I could dust and wipe along the way?
I currently have an Audi that I’ve owned for 2 years in September. If doesn’t see snow or rain. When I got it, I coated it…and I’ve ONLY dusted and wiped ever since. It’s never even been washed in two years…and it looks fantastic. OR so I think. From what you say, if I polish and re-coat, it will look much better due to not having that haze that’s just progressively gotten worse without me really noticing it over the course of time.

A: Yes, a proper wash and 2 bucket method is the only way you should be washing your car, but no, you don’t need to wash it every time it gets dusty. The more you touch the paint, whether with a QD or rinseless wash spray or regular washing, you are introducing a chance to mar the paint. The best way is a regular wash, but even then, you are touching the paint and could scratch the surface. You’re throwing money and time away by wiping it all the time, polishing it once a year, and re-coating. Step out of the mindset that you need to always wipe the car down and have it be dust free.

Q: Can I use Waterless Wash, Rinseless Wash, etc on the coating? I currently use a Meguire’s product and do a 2-bucket rinseless wash. I spray the panel with the product and then 2 bucket wash using the same product, followed by a towel dry. Again, I’ve been doing this a long time when the vehicle has more than just daily dust but less that road grime. The Megs product I use has no waxes, polymers, etc, etc…said to have been developed for coatings. Is this a no-good way to go as well?

A: No, DO NOT use a rinseless wash products EVER. It’s about the paint, not about the coating. You’re going to be marring the paint by using those. As I said above, think about the long term effects of what you are doing to your car’s paint by using those kinds of products.

Q: I understand what you say about having the perfect finish…but having the perfect finish doesn’t really matter if it doesn’t LOOK like the perfect finish due to the elements that I usual dust and wipe away.

A: By wiping it down all the time, polishing it regularly, you are diminishing the finite amount of paint that you’ve got on your car. Is that worth having a dust-free car?

This one is a good one...
Q: Also…it seems like ever semi-pro to pro detailer out there has a favorite QD or favorite method for maintaining the look of the vehicle. Are they all wrong? When I wash my vehicle (especially my full-sized truck)…it takes over an hour. When I dust and wipe, I can do it in 15 minutes. So making a change will also make a big difference it time and WHEN I can do it.

A: Yes, they are all wrong. We are the best in America because we use the best products and we don’t cut corners. QDs and spray waxes are generally poor products that are only going to mask the superior characteristics of coatings. You are already wanting to step up to using coatings—why step back down to QDs and spray waxes? That’s essentially what you are doing by using them.

Q: Again, thank you VERY much for all your help and info…you may make a night/day difference. Hopefully you have the time to educate me on the items above so that I can understand the “right” way to do this. I WANT to do it the best way.

A: You’re welcome! Please feel free to give me a call about any of these and I’ll make sure to point you in the right direction!
 
Interesting read.

I am interested in whom this respected professional is as that might give a little more insight into the replies.





While I do agree that the more you touch the paint the more you risk marring and scratches; I disagree with the comments on rinse-less being bad. Opti, ONR and many user would disagree with this. I have moved past the dusty car QD wipe-down. I either let it go until I can wash fully using 2BM or I go rinse-less. I use UWWW and waterless washes in General but I use them in a more of a modified Rinse-less.
 
I generally rinseless unless it is really dirty and my coatings are free of marring 4+ years in. Hell, I use rinseless wash (ONR) for my interiors. I do only use QD as drying aids and mostly use waterless for jambs.

I guess if I`m wrong, I don`t want to be right. ;)
 
TroyScherer said:
Interesting read.

I am interested in whom this respected professional is as that might give a little more insight into the replies.







While I do agree that the more you touch the paint the more you risk marring and scratches; I disagree with the comments on rinse-less being bad. Opti, ONR and many user would disagree with this. I have moved past the dusty car QD wipe-down. I either let it go until I can wash fully using 2BM or I go rinse-less. I use UWWW and waterless washes in General but I use them in a more of a modified Rinse-less.
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I use the Ultima wash as well. The reason for any of these questions to begin with was so I could figure out what WASH and what QD would be acceptable on the coating. I still haven`t gotten that answer since the answer was to NOT use either of those products. I`m on the fence because I understand why not to...it does make some sense. However, I`ve had a process I`ve used in the past which has not let me down, and my vehicles look amazing (at least I don`t NOTICE the finish slowing being marred to a haze). It`s hard to say. I am willing to learn and try new methods though. I just like to gather more information and opinions before making a wholesale change.
 
mjlinane said:
I generally rinseless unless it is really dirty and my coatings are free of marring 4+ years in. Hell, I use rinseless wash (ONR) for my interiors. I do only use QD as drying aids and mostly use waterless for jambs.

I guess if I`m wrong, I don`t want to be right. ;)
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Same here, except I will use a duster for pollen and light dust. I don`t use a QD specifically, but rather use a rinseless wash at higher strength as a QD (I was using the Ultima product). I guess the thought here is that the marring from these methods happens so slowly that you don`t notice the effects it has. You don`t notice the haze being added to the finish and the loss of gloss and reflection. Kind of like your hearing and eyesight...you don`t notice until it`s too later :-)
Again...that`s just the opinion being offered for discussion...as I`m doing it the way you are too.
 
Not trying to say anyone is wrong or even that my way is right but my garage queen gets waterless washes to remove light dust, but my daily driver I will just foam and rinse and then use either my leaf blower set up or compressed air to dry it. I would do the same to my garaged truck but since I retired it from every day driving I do my best not to get it wet.
 
You do need to wash your car to remove brake dust that can work its way into the coating.

I stopped reading at dont use a rinseless wash though lol
 
If you can`t 2BM wash your car often, then would you rather have 1)A dirty car for a longer period of time but knowing you`ll have less marring in the long run or 2) A clean car more often but realizing you might have more slight marring over the long run. I don`t have a coated car and my car is leased with intention to return but if I personally had a long term car that`s been coated, I`d rather go with option 2 knowing that the coating will hopefully help protect against marring and that even the most durable of coatings last less than 10 years anyway and will need to be re-coated.
 
I think the best way would be what a few members here do which is pressure wash and then rinseless. That might possibly be as safe if not safer than a 2 bucket wash even with a couple different mitts because you 8 different sides of the mf towel and using multiple towels. With a wash mitt you are going over larger surface areas and if you do pick anything up, that is going to get ground into the paint whereas if you pick anything up with a mf towel, on the next swipe you are already using a new edge of that side or a whole new side.
 
Cobra97 -

Thanks for taking the time go all those lengths with this guy and posting them all here..

As you already know, we are a very nice group of guys and gals that do a lot of things differently, but all share the common goal of loving what we do (for the most part), and enjoying the look of any vehicle that is as I like to put it - "A Rolling Mirror" going down the street.. :)

That said, if it was me answering your questions, I would say this -

A good coating will on its own, reject much dirt and allow one to go longer before having to wash the vehicle, thus minimizing the opportunities to introduce light scratching - into the coating - ..

I would only want to wash the coating with CarPro Reset, which has proven (to me), to be the best all-around soap to help clean all the gunk that eventually sticks to even the best coatings around Year-3-4....

Have personally tried many car wash products and while they all do "wash" very well, they all leave my coating still not as perfect as it could be when I use Reset...

I would stress that anything that happens to the vehicle exterior is going to be on the Coating first, and hopefully not ever get down to the Clearcoat underneath, so one of the purposes of a really good coating is fulfilled - protecting the Clearcoat underneath it from taking the hit..

I used to also be very attentive to how much dirt/dust,etc.., got on my vehicles - on a daily basis - :) but as the years have gone on, I have come to appreciate that a good coating can keep a lot of stuff off the vehicle long enough to meet my needs now, and I am very happy about the time I have saved to now do other things that involve Detailing...

On a side note, I have applied a lot of Sonax Polymer Net Shield to many vehicles after paint correction, and that product has really amped up the shine and lasted for literally months - even in constant rainy, wet environment of the Pacific Northwest.. And this is not a "latest-greatest-newest-blah-blah-LSP today !!! :)
It does require application with either foam or something rather than spraying directly on the panel, and immediate wipe off, but for all the work, it really looks beautiful - especially the next day, when I assume, it is all dried and cured...

There are many many coatings coming out, even more frequently than when they officially started around 10 years ago or so - if you don`t count Sal Zaino who should be addressed as the Father of all Sealants/Coatings going back a few decades more...

I tend to go after their "time in grade" (to coin an old Military term) first, when looking at them and if they have lots of years behind and are still looking and working great, then I know that all that time hopefully means I will get a lot of time on my applications before I have to mess with it again..

There will probably be only less than a handful of real Detail Guru`s in the world and anyone who stresses how good they are and you can come get the best information from them is NOT one of those Guru`s...

This Forum alone - probably has more really exceptional, great, incredibly talented, hardest working, humble people on it than a handful of those places that blast you immediately out of the water if you don`t think like the Majority...

And our age span goes from the youngest, brightest, hard working, willing to take lots of experimental projects, etc., to the oldest, wisest, have already put their "time in grade" in the amount of decades, and are now slowing it down to stop more often and help out when we can...

Hope we have all helped you come to the place where you feel you can go for your own needs, and know that your questions and comments are always welcome !
Dan F
 
Thank you for all the information. The Q&A was provided to me by a detailer/retailer of Kamikaze and Gyeon products. They are amazing detailers and very informative in many ways. I was turned on to the Kamikaze coating, and I think it`s amazing (so far). I value everyone`s thoughts and opinions on products and processes...because that`s how a person becomes educated enough to come up with a process that works for them. In this case, I was just surprised and the very firm stance on NO rinseless wash and NO QD...especially when so many, many detailers on her use those products with seemingly great success. That`s why I came to everyone with my questions.

The entire Q&A started simply from me asking what QD and/or rinseless wash would be compatible with the Kamikaze coating and done degrade it`s fantastic appearance. Mr Lambert (and advocate for the Kamikaze and Gyeon products) recommended Kenotech as a QD he as had success with. So as a user of Kamikaze products, he is still having success with products that are supposedly not good to use. Like many here, I just don`t know if I can NOT dust, wipe, wash, etc...I think I`d go crazy.

As Dan mentioned above, the group here has combined knowledge that is on another level...so it makes sense to ask the best.
 
cobrar97 said:
The Q&A was provided to me by a detailer/retailer of Kamikaze and Gyeon products. They are amazing detailers and very informative in many ways.

In this case, I was just surprised and the very firm stance on NO rinseless wash and NO QD...especially when so many, many detailers on her use those products with seemingly great success.
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This info tells me exactly what I was looking for. (Whom you were talking with). I do find it interesting if their stance on Rinse-less washing & QD is so strong then; Why do they sell ONR (Rinse-less) and even Sonax BSD (QD) in their store?
 
TroyScherer said:
This info tells me exactly what I was looking for. (Whom you were talking with). I do find it interesting if their stance on Rinse-less washing & QD is so strong then; Why do they sell ONR (Rinse-less) and even Sonax BSD (QD) in their store?
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i think their stance on ONR and QD are specific to coatings. they possibly keep it in stores for people who do not have coatings on the vehicles.

i still find it interesting that they dislike it so much but he is right. 2bm is the best way to clean a DIRTY vehicle. ONR type product for lightly dusty vehicles but I think pollen should be washed off with 2BM.

it just depends on your area and what you are comfortable with. I live in southeast TX and get tons of pollen, rain, dirt and air pollution from refineries in the area. I ALWAYS do a 2BM wash on my vehicle
 
It is interesting Optimum confidently recommends only washing with ONR on a Optimum coated vehicle, which shows the confidence they have in their coating. Perhaps the same cannot be said of Gyeon and Kamikaze?
 
TroyScherer said:
This info tells me exactly what I was looking for. (Whom you were talking with). I do find it interesting if their stance on Rinse-less washing & QD is so strong then; Why do they sell ONR (Rinse-less) and even Sonax BSD (QD) in their store?
Click to expand...

That`s the same question I had. I suppose people are going to use the products regardless...might as well sell stuff to those who aren`t "the best in the US".
 
Yes, anytime you touch your paint you risk marring. That`s a choice you have to make.

Do you want to have a dirty car for longer just because you`re worried about that?

I don`t wait for every third ```` to use a bidet. I wipe every time.
 
Noting that I basically never touch the paint with *anything* in-between my (rather extreme) regular washes...is it staying marring-free for years, or close enough to satisfy *you*? Your results, and your opinion, are all that counts.

If what you`re doing is OK, then it should basically stay perfect, especially you don`t subject it to winter weather,. If it does stay marring-free, just keep doing what you`re doing no matter what anybody says. If it does *not* stay marring-free, then I`d reevaluate what you`re doing.

But again, it`s all about whether *YOU* are satisfied with your results. Don`t let The Curse of Autopia (where everything`s gotta be perfect and the opinions of others might factor in) drive you nuts.

Oh, and just FWIW...that "every time you touch the car you risk marring it" idea is an OK theory, but I wash mine whenever they need it, I inspect under unforgiving lighting (because I`m crazy enough to care, but that doesn`t mean you should) and I don`t mar `em enough to need polishing even once per decade other than the *very* infrequent spot-correction (seldom wash-related). Haven`t even done that on some of mine for many years. Wash-induced marring is all about using the right technique for the vehicle/condition in question, and IME that marring *can* be avoided.

Doesn`t matter how often you do something if that something doesn`t cause issues. Just because the potential is there, that doesn`t mean it`ll happen. It`s a risk/reward decision that only you can make.

FWIW#2- I can`t wash (consistently) marring-free with a rinseless, even if it`s just "garage dust". I only use my IUDJ *after* I`ve already pressure washed it, and then washed it once with the BHB/foamgun combo and again with a BHB/mitt. I *might* skip the BHB/mitt step on something so clean that others would merely QD it, but if it`s been driven (or even if it just sat in the very clean shop for a while) I`ll start with the pressure washer and then the BHB/foamgun.

Yeah, plenty of people here get the results they`re after with just a rinseless wash, but it doesn`t work that way for me and I gotta go with what works for me.
 
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