Kevin Brown
New member
This post is taken from another thread:
I have a friend that seriously underestimates the power of a pc
The information was 'lost in the thread', so to speak.
I decided to start a new thread related to using the Surbuf pad with the random-orbital machine.
The following is a repeat of the already posted information. PorscheGuy997's post is also included here.
Using the Surbuf Pad with a random-orbital for defect removal
No pictures of the procedure here.
I find it hard to capture the nuances of a surface properly leveled with a rotary compared to a surface leveled with this method.
Hopefully, one of the forum members will try this method and post some high quality shots of the process.
There are a few combinations that work well when using the random-orbital polisher to level paint. This particular combination uses products that are readily available. I am not suggesting that paint-polishing beginners attempt to wet sand their paint jobs and then polish away the scratches using this system! In fact, only those proficient with the use of a rotary buffer should attempt to use this method. This ensures that any remaining defects can easily be removed, should the listed procedure not work well with the vehicle's paint type.
Here is the list of products I use for this particular system:
Meguiar's G110 Random Orbital Polisher
Meguiar's M105 Ultra-Cut Compound
Meguiar's Last Touch Detail Spray
Surbuf R Series Microfingers 6.5"� pad
Meguiar's W9006 Soft Buff Finishing Pad
This is not a one-step system, so plan on changing pads and possibly buffing liquid to remove any remaining defects. Since my best results have been achieved when using M105 as the buffing liquid, I recommend that you also use M105. This way, if some guidance or opinions are desired, it will be much easier to troubleshoot unsatisfactory or inconsistent results. There are a lot of highly skilled paint polishers that are members of this forum (and have already used M105), so their experience can also benefit us, should attempts to use this system deliver less than satisfactory results.
The Surbuf R Series Pad, and how I think it works most effectively
A quick read of the comments posted on this forum about the Surbuf pad reveals varied opinions pertaining to overall pad performance. This is understandable, because the type of paint being polished, the choice of buffing liquid, the polishing procedure, and the pressure placed upon the pad can really affect defect removal and polishing results. While this is true with all other pads, the difference in performance when using the Surbuf pad can be dramatic.
One of the biggest complaints about the pad pertained to the fact that the microfingers would fall off the pad and lie upon the paint surface. Normally, this would be a huge problem; in the case of foam pads, a piece of contamination this size placed between the pad and paint surface would likely create some rather deep scratches. Since stray microfingers will not cause a problem with this particular paint leveling procedure, it is not critical to remove loose fibers from the paint surface during the leveling process.
The instruction sheet included with the pad recommends vacuuming the Surbuf pad prior to use. Vacuuming, a quick brush of the pad, or a burst of compressed air aimed at the microfingers will be sufficient for pad preparation.
The Surbuf's microfingers are attached to a foam pad, set in a vertical position. The literature claims that the microfingers are non-tufted. This means that the tiny fibers are not plugged into the pads in groups, nor are they long strands of material that have been woven through a backing. This is probably done to keep the fibers completely vertical to the foam portion of the pad, so that the fingers can effectively reach peaks and valleys when used for woodworking tasks.
For more information about the pad design, check out their website at Welcome to Surbuf.com.
Individually, the microfingers are thin, pliable, and bend rather easily. However, unlike wool or cotton, the microfingers do not collapse, compress, or squish into a pile. Instead, the fingers maintain their strand-shaped structure. Since they are made of a durable material, the microfingers do not break into smaller pieces as they are used.
When polishing paint with any type of pad, the face of the pad should be designed to efficiently use its surface area. In other words, if a foam pad has lines, squares, circles, or dimples cut out of (or pressed into) the pad face, less actual pad material contacts the paint surface. Certainly then, we hope these areas (devoid of foam) were designed to increase buffing performance or comfort of use, as they unfortunately decrease the amount of surface area in contact with the paint.
Another design parameter that determines how much surface area actually contacts the paint when using foam pads is the amount of pores per inch it features (commonly referred to as ppi). More pores, larger pores, thinner walls between the pores, or how stiff the walls are all affect how much foam contacts the paint during the buffing process.
In the case of the Surbuf pad, not a lot of surface area touches the paint when the pad is set upon it. As the downward pressure applied to the pad is increased, the microfingers start to bend, and the surface area of a finger contacting the paint increases. Ideally, we want as much of each individual microfinger to contact the paint as possible. Therefore, the fingers must be somewhat horizontal to the paint surface. If too much pressure is placed upon the pad, the microfingers bend so much that the tips of the fingers start to curl upwards towards the foam portion of the pad (like a fish hook, or the capital letter J). This happens because the fingers start to lie upon each other, tightly compressed and randomly bent. If even more pressure is added in an attempt to create a flatter pad surface, the fingers will intertwine with each other, and create an uneven surface that could easily scratch or scour the paint (think of the structure of a Scotch-Brite pad, and you will better understand the net effect of too much pressure). In addition, the fingers become packed with buffing liquid, and start sticking to the foam part of the pad. To ensure satisfactory defect removal, the buffing liquid should remain on the paint surface, and lightly coat the microfingers with its abrasive material.
To verify this theory, I placed a Surbuf pad on a table with the fingers facing up. Then, a 12" x 12"� piece of glass was set upon the fingers. As I pressed against the glass, I could see how the microfingers reacted to varied pressures. My suspicions were confirmed: for best results, I wanted the fingers to bend, but not so much that they curled or compressed.
On to the leveling procedure!
Professional users of the random orbital polisher seem to be pairing their machines with smaller pads more frequently. For general paint polishing, I also prefer pads that are 5"� to 6.5"� in diameter, and thinner in overall height rather than thicker. While there are some benefits to using larger and thicker pads, most of the time I use smaller pads for defect removal (as small as 3" in diameter).
With this in mind, I attached my 5" Surbuf pad to a Meguiar's W67DA backing plate (approximately 4.75" diameter). As I used this pad and backing plate combination, best leveling results were realized when the machine was adjusted to the highest speed setting (6,700 OPM). The more I used the pad, the more I found myself lifting up on the machine to minimize downward pressure.
To eliminate this necessity, I switched to a 6.5"� diameter pad and a bigger backing plate. The increased surface of the pad would better distribute the downward applied pressure created by the weight of the machine. Of course, the amount of microfingers working to level the paint was substantially increased (approximately 68%). This combination worked great; the fingers bent enough to really level the paint quickly, but left a bit of wiggle room so that if needed, I could tilt the machine now and then to better focus the downward applied pressure. A huge benefit of the Surbuf's unique design is airflow. Since the design of the pad allows plenty of fresh air to circulate between the fingers and across the paint surface, things stay pretty darned cool, even during heavy cutting.
To help keep the M105 buffing liquid where the work needed to be done, I kept the paint surface wet. A trigger bottle filled with a 50/50 mixture of Meguiar's Last Touch Detail Spray and water was used to occasionally mist the paint surface. This bit of added moisture would wet the microfingers as they rubbed across the paint, loosening a majority of the abrasive from the fibers. The inertia created by the machine would help to return the abrasive to the paint surface. While the abrasive was devoid of the buffing liquid's built-in lubrication due to evaporation caused by friction, the addition of Last Touch helped to keep the paint slippery.
The addition of Last Touch may decrease cutting ability a little, but it may actually increase leveling. Since less friction is created because lubrication is increased, the random rotation of the backing plate increases. In my experience, this means that the rotational speed can jump as much as 100% at the point where the buffing liquid's lubrication evaporates. I have seen my G110 rotate the pad very quickly; my best guess puts pad rotation at eight to ten turns per second, or 480-600 rpm. Anyone that has used the Flex 3401VRG knows the effect this kind of speed has on defect removal.
So... if our pad rotational speed increases but there is a notable drop in friction, how can the pad actually level paint to a more accurate degree? My best guess is this: as an individual fiber comes into contact with a high point on the paint surface (such as the top point of a sanding scratch), it will have less time to adjust positioning once it hits the point. This means that the fiber will remain in the same position longer, so it will cut through the edge of the first point, and only change direction via deflection a small amount before hitting the next point, and on and on.
Whether this is true or not does not really matter. What does matter is how well this combination works! Surbuf pads are relatively inexpensive, and last a reasonably long time. Since the fingers are applying a rather durable and hard abrasive material, I realize that the fingers will wear out quickly compared to using them with a non-abrasive polishing liquid (or a liquid that does not contain such hard abrasive particles). But hey- if this combination can create a very level surface using a random orbital, it is a small price to pay.
Once the paint has been leveled and all random defects have been eliminated, a final polishing will more than likely be required. Although the Surbuf pad levels paint quite well, it does seem to leave behind a small amount of curlicue scratches. While these marks are usually very fine, they are obvious. To remove them, simply change the pad to a traditional style foam finishing pad, and use a final polish as you normally would. If you are a skilled user of the random orbital polisher, very little distortion of the ultra-leveled surface should occur (if any).
I hope I have explained this process in an easy to understand manner. Good luck, and be patient when traveling through the learning curves!
Close-up pictures of the Surbuf Pad
I took some pics with a little 150x magnification USB camera. I wanted to show what the Surbuf microfingers look like when they are flattened a bit. For reference, I also took a shot of a Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad, a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe, and a Mirka Abralon disc.
Funny thing is, my $12 Radio Shack Illuminated Microscope works way better! I can't figure out how to capture the shot with it, though. With it, I can tell if a sanding disc is a coarse or fine grit, and even if it is worn out.
In the pictures, the pointer is the lead tip of a Pentel .5mm pencil:
Shot of the Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad:
Shot of the Surbuf R Series Pad:
Shot of a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe (used and washed several times):
Mirka Abralon 4000 grit Sanding Disc:
It is interesting to see the structure of the foam pad, and easy to see why we potentially lose so much cut! Not a lot of surface area to force the particles into the paint as they're being moved about. This is why pressure changes to the machine make such a difference in cut with any foam pad.
Chris Dasher aka PorscheGuy997's post:
I have been messing around with DA wetsanding and using the Surbuf on the DA for a few weeks now. In the past, I have never tried removing wetsanding marks with the DA. The rotary does such a good job that I never tried it. But, I did take the suggestions from Kevin and gave the Surbuf pads a try.
The Surbuf pads are very different from the foam pads we normally use.
Because these pads are so different, they can remove defects that are simply unheard of.
Here's an example:
I DA sanded this scrap hood using a Mirka Abranet Soft 1500 disk.
Using a 5.5" Surbuf pad and the original formula M105 on the DA, I was able to remove the 1500 grit marks.
Although there is some deep etching, you can clearly see that the marks have been removed.
The finish left by the Surbuf pad and M105 is a little hazed, but it can easily corrected with PO106FA or M205 on a polishing pad. So yes, a DA (with the right combination) can remove serious defects.
Notes about the Surbuf pad:
The latest testing has revealed that a 7" pad is a very good choice. It delivers high rotation speed, serious defect removal, and user comfort. The large size distributes added downward pressure nicely (should the user have a desire to bear down on a particularly stubborn defect).
Use caution!
On fresh paint (or paint containing flex agent), there is enough applied force with this method that the paint could 'twist'. Paint twisting occurs when the heat and friction created by the machine, pad, buffing liquid, and applied pressure combine to alter the bond between the paint, primer, or substrate it is attached to.
What does this mean?
The result of paint twist resembles the sidewall of a drag slick leaving the line. I do not have a picture to show paint twist, because it is rather rare. Maybe the next time I work on a freshly painted test panel I can try to make a twist mark. Normally, it takes a pretty aggressive combination to twist paint. A rotary buffer and a wool pad (or a dense foam pad) teamed with a decent amount of pressure could do it. Buffing liquids containing strong solvents increase the risk of it, too. About ten years ago I twisted a small area of paint on a bumper cladding, but I was able to sand and polish the area, repairing the damage.
In an extreme case of paint twist... the paint can actually be torn off the panel! It is rare, but I have seen it happen. A few years ago I had spent about 50 hours sanding and polishing a paint job. Someone else decided to 'touch-up' buff an small area and within a few seconds managed to twist a quarter-size piece of paint right off.
So, as with most things, proceeding with caution and common sense is an asset.
End.
I have a friend that seriously underestimates the power of a pc
The information was 'lost in the thread', so to speak.
I decided to start a new thread related to using the Surbuf pad with the random-orbital machine.
The following is a repeat of the already posted information. PorscheGuy997's post is also included here.
Using the Surbuf Pad with a random-orbital for defect removal
No pictures of the procedure here.
I find it hard to capture the nuances of a surface properly leveled with a rotary compared to a surface leveled with this method.
Hopefully, one of the forum members will try this method and post some high quality shots of the process.
There are a few combinations that work well when using the random-orbital polisher to level paint. This particular combination uses products that are readily available. I am not suggesting that paint-polishing beginners attempt to wet sand their paint jobs and then polish away the scratches using this system! In fact, only those proficient with the use of a rotary buffer should attempt to use this method. This ensures that any remaining defects can easily be removed, should the listed procedure not work well with the vehicle's paint type.
Here is the list of products I use for this particular system:
Meguiar's G110 Random Orbital Polisher
Meguiar's M105 Ultra-Cut Compound
Meguiar's Last Touch Detail Spray
Surbuf R Series Microfingers 6.5"� pad
Meguiar's W9006 Soft Buff Finishing Pad
This is not a one-step system, so plan on changing pads and possibly buffing liquid to remove any remaining defects. Since my best results have been achieved when using M105 as the buffing liquid, I recommend that you also use M105. This way, if some guidance or opinions are desired, it will be much easier to troubleshoot unsatisfactory or inconsistent results. There are a lot of highly skilled paint polishers that are members of this forum (and have already used M105), so their experience can also benefit us, should attempts to use this system deliver less than satisfactory results.
The Surbuf R Series Pad, and how I think it works most effectively
A quick read of the comments posted on this forum about the Surbuf pad reveals varied opinions pertaining to overall pad performance. This is understandable, because the type of paint being polished, the choice of buffing liquid, the polishing procedure, and the pressure placed upon the pad can really affect defect removal and polishing results. While this is true with all other pads, the difference in performance when using the Surbuf pad can be dramatic.
One of the biggest complaints about the pad pertained to the fact that the microfingers would fall off the pad and lie upon the paint surface. Normally, this would be a huge problem; in the case of foam pads, a piece of contamination this size placed between the pad and paint surface would likely create some rather deep scratches. Since stray microfingers will not cause a problem with this particular paint leveling procedure, it is not critical to remove loose fibers from the paint surface during the leveling process.
The instruction sheet included with the pad recommends vacuuming the Surbuf pad prior to use. Vacuuming, a quick brush of the pad, or a burst of compressed air aimed at the microfingers will be sufficient for pad preparation.
The Surbuf's microfingers are attached to a foam pad, set in a vertical position. The literature claims that the microfingers are non-tufted. This means that the tiny fibers are not plugged into the pads in groups, nor are they long strands of material that have been woven through a backing. This is probably done to keep the fibers completely vertical to the foam portion of the pad, so that the fingers can effectively reach peaks and valleys when used for woodworking tasks.
For more information about the pad design, check out their website at Welcome to Surbuf.com.
Individually, the microfingers are thin, pliable, and bend rather easily. However, unlike wool or cotton, the microfingers do not collapse, compress, or squish into a pile. Instead, the fingers maintain their strand-shaped structure. Since they are made of a durable material, the microfingers do not break into smaller pieces as they are used.
When polishing paint with any type of pad, the face of the pad should be designed to efficiently use its surface area. In other words, if a foam pad has lines, squares, circles, or dimples cut out of (or pressed into) the pad face, less actual pad material contacts the paint surface. Certainly then, we hope these areas (devoid of foam) were designed to increase buffing performance or comfort of use, as they unfortunately decrease the amount of surface area in contact with the paint.
Another design parameter that determines how much surface area actually contacts the paint when using foam pads is the amount of pores per inch it features (commonly referred to as ppi). More pores, larger pores, thinner walls between the pores, or how stiff the walls are all affect how much foam contacts the paint during the buffing process.
In the case of the Surbuf pad, not a lot of surface area touches the paint when the pad is set upon it. As the downward pressure applied to the pad is increased, the microfingers start to bend, and the surface area of a finger contacting the paint increases. Ideally, we want as much of each individual microfinger to contact the paint as possible. Therefore, the fingers must be somewhat horizontal to the paint surface. If too much pressure is placed upon the pad, the microfingers bend so much that the tips of the fingers start to curl upwards towards the foam portion of the pad (like a fish hook, or the capital letter J). This happens because the fingers start to lie upon each other, tightly compressed and randomly bent. If even more pressure is added in an attempt to create a flatter pad surface, the fingers will intertwine with each other, and create an uneven surface that could easily scratch or scour the paint (think of the structure of a Scotch-Brite pad, and you will better understand the net effect of too much pressure). In addition, the fingers become packed with buffing liquid, and start sticking to the foam part of the pad. To ensure satisfactory defect removal, the buffing liquid should remain on the paint surface, and lightly coat the microfingers with its abrasive material.
To verify this theory, I placed a Surbuf pad on a table with the fingers facing up. Then, a 12" x 12"� piece of glass was set upon the fingers. As I pressed against the glass, I could see how the microfingers reacted to varied pressures. My suspicions were confirmed: for best results, I wanted the fingers to bend, but not so much that they curled or compressed.
On to the leveling procedure!
Professional users of the random orbital polisher seem to be pairing their machines with smaller pads more frequently. For general paint polishing, I also prefer pads that are 5"� to 6.5"� in diameter, and thinner in overall height rather than thicker. While there are some benefits to using larger and thicker pads, most of the time I use smaller pads for defect removal (as small as 3" in diameter).
With this in mind, I attached my 5" Surbuf pad to a Meguiar's W67DA backing plate (approximately 4.75" diameter). As I used this pad and backing plate combination, best leveling results were realized when the machine was adjusted to the highest speed setting (6,700 OPM). The more I used the pad, the more I found myself lifting up on the machine to minimize downward pressure.
To eliminate this necessity, I switched to a 6.5"� diameter pad and a bigger backing plate. The increased surface of the pad would better distribute the downward applied pressure created by the weight of the machine. Of course, the amount of microfingers working to level the paint was substantially increased (approximately 68%). This combination worked great; the fingers bent enough to really level the paint quickly, but left a bit of wiggle room so that if needed, I could tilt the machine now and then to better focus the downward applied pressure. A huge benefit of the Surbuf's unique design is airflow. Since the design of the pad allows plenty of fresh air to circulate between the fingers and across the paint surface, things stay pretty darned cool, even during heavy cutting.
To help keep the M105 buffing liquid where the work needed to be done, I kept the paint surface wet. A trigger bottle filled with a 50/50 mixture of Meguiar's Last Touch Detail Spray and water was used to occasionally mist the paint surface. This bit of added moisture would wet the microfingers as they rubbed across the paint, loosening a majority of the abrasive from the fibers. The inertia created by the machine would help to return the abrasive to the paint surface. While the abrasive was devoid of the buffing liquid's built-in lubrication due to evaporation caused by friction, the addition of Last Touch helped to keep the paint slippery.
The addition of Last Touch may decrease cutting ability a little, but it may actually increase leveling. Since less friction is created because lubrication is increased, the random rotation of the backing plate increases. In my experience, this means that the rotational speed can jump as much as 100% at the point where the buffing liquid's lubrication evaporates. I have seen my G110 rotate the pad very quickly; my best guess puts pad rotation at eight to ten turns per second, or 480-600 rpm. Anyone that has used the Flex 3401VRG knows the effect this kind of speed has on defect removal.
So... if our pad rotational speed increases but there is a notable drop in friction, how can the pad actually level paint to a more accurate degree? My best guess is this: as an individual fiber comes into contact with a high point on the paint surface (such as the top point of a sanding scratch), it will have less time to adjust positioning once it hits the point. This means that the fiber will remain in the same position longer, so it will cut through the edge of the first point, and only change direction via deflection a small amount before hitting the next point, and on and on.
Whether this is true or not does not really matter. What does matter is how well this combination works! Surbuf pads are relatively inexpensive, and last a reasonably long time. Since the fingers are applying a rather durable and hard abrasive material, I realize that the fingers will wear out quickly compared to using them with a non-abrasive polishing liquid (or a liquid that does not contain such hard abrasive particles). But hey- if this combination can create a very level surface using a random orbital, it is a small price to pay.
Once the paint has been leveled and all random defects have been eliminated, a final polishing will more than likely be required. Although the Surbuf pad levels paint quite well, it does seem to leave behind a small amount of curlicue scratches. While these marks are usually very fine, they are obvious. To remove them, simply change the pad to a traditional style foam finishing pad, and use a final polish as you normally would. If you are a skilled user of the random orbital polisher, very little distortion of the ultra-leveled surface should occur (if any).
I hope I have explained this process in an easy to understand manner. Good luck, and be patient when traveling through the learning curves!
Close-up pictures of the Surbuf Pad
I took some pics with a little 150x magnification USB camera. I wanted to show what the Surbuf microfingers look like when they are flattened a bit. For reference, I also took a shot of a Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad, a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe, and a Mirka Abralon disc.
Funny thing is, my $12 Radio Shack Illuminated Microscope works way better! I can't figure out how to capture the shot with it, though. With it, I can tell if a sanding disc is a coarse or fine grit, and even if it is worn out.
In the pictures, the pointer is the lead tip of a Pentel .5mm pencil:
Shot of the Meguiar's W8006 SoftBuff Polishing Pad:
Shot of the Surbuf R Series Pad:
Shot of a Meguiar's M9910 Ultimate Wipe (used and washed several times):
Mirka Abralon 4000 grit Sanding Disc:
It is interesting to see the structure of the foam pad, and easy to see why we potentially lose so much cut! Not a lot of surface area to force the particles into the paint as they're being moved about. This is why pressure changes to the machine make such a difference in cut with any foam pad.
Chris Dasher aka PorscheGuy997's post:
I have been messing around with DA wetsanding and using the Surbuf on the DA for a few weeks now. In the past, I have never tried removing wetsanding marks with the DA. The rotary does such a good job that I never tried it. But, I did take the suggestions from Kevin and gave the Surbuf pads a try.
The Surbuf pads are very different from the foam pads we normally use.
Because these pads are so different, they can remove defects that are simply unheard of.
Here's an example:
I DA sanded this scrap hood using a Mirka Abranet Soft 1500 disk.
Using a 5.5" Surbuf pad and the original formula M105 on the DA, I was able to remove the 1500 grit marks.
Although there is some deep etching, you can clearly see that the marks have been removed.
The finish left by the Surbuf pad and M105 is a little hazed, but it can easily corrected with PO106FA or M205 on a polishing pad. So yes, a DA (with the right combination) can remove serious defects.
Notes about the Surbuf pad:
- The amount of product is absolutely critical.
If you apply too much product, it will not remove many defects.
I found that it was best to prime the pad with product and then polish the area.
If you find that there is too much product on the surface, wipe it off the area and then continue polishing without adding more product.
- The amount of pressure used can also very important.
- Follow Kevin's guidelines and you should be fine.
- Surbuf offers many different sizes of pads.
The 5.5" pads were perfect for my use, but you can choose whatever size you like.
The latest testing has revealed that a 7" pad is a very good choice. It delivers high rotation speed, serious defect removal, and user comfort. The large size distributes added downward pressure nicely (should the user have a desire to bear down on a particularly stubborn defect).
Use caution!
On fresh paint (or paint containing flex agent), there is enough applied force with this method that the paint could 'twist'. Paint twisting occurs when the heat and friction created by the machine, pad, buffing liquid, and applied pressure combine to alter the bond between the paint, primer, or substrate it is attached to.
What does this mean?
The result of paint twist resembles the sidewall of a drag slick leaving the line. I do not have a picture to show paint twist, because it is rather rare. Maybe the next time I work on a freshly painted test panel I can try to make a twist mark. Normally, it takes a pretty aggressive combination to twist paint. A rotary buffer and a wool pad (or a dense foam pad) teamed with a decent amount of pressure could do it. Buffing liquids containing strong solvents increase the risk of it, too. About ten years ago I twisted a small area of paint on a bumper cladding, but I was able to sand and polish the area, repairing the damage.
In an extreme case of paint twist... the paint can actually be torn off the panel! It is rare, but I have seen it happen. A few years ago I had spent about 50 hours sanding and polishing a paint job. Someone else decided to 'touch-up' buff an small area and within a few seconds managed to twist a quarter-size piece of paint right off.
So, as with most things, proceeding with caution and common sense is an asset.
End.
).
Just kidding (sort of). 
as mine really did lose enough fibers that they had major bald spots. Hmm...the polish, more pressure than I thought I was applying...who knows but I gather that's not normal.