School me on European/Japanese sedans

[House of Wax]

Here's the skinny....the wife and I are in the middle of some vehicle shuffling. We recently picked up an Expedition for a "family hauler". Now I'm going to be working on getting a second vehicle for myself. It's primary use will be just a second vehicle getting me back and forth to work and taking my daughter to school in the morning. Part of me is considering a early-mid 2000's Bmw, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, etc....I'd like to get something at least somewhat interesting to drive (Those brands have some nice looking sedans with manual transmissions) and I only put about 10 miles a day on, so higher mileage cars aren't a big problem so long as they aren't a maintenance nightmare or have major common problems.

I can't come up with any domestic sedans that interest me, but I've never had anything other than domestic cars, so I'm not quite sure what I'm getting into.

Are any of those brands more reliable than the others? Any specific models that are to be completely avoided?

 

[Angus]

Well if you're looking for something fun to drive, with a manual trans, and need 4 doors - I'd say check out a E39 BMW M5 from the last year they were produced: 2003. You'll get probably the last great M5 to be made with lots of power from it's 4.9L V8 (400hp/ 370lb ft when new) and superb handling.

If on the other hand you want 4 wheel drive, perhaps a Subaru WRX would be worth taking a look at? Lots of fun to drive but the early 2000 ones don't have the best design and it maybe hard finding one that hasn't been modified to within an inch of it's life.

 

[House of Wax]

I do like the wrx's, but as you said, I've had a hard time finding one that isn't modded to hell or 200k+ miles on it.

4 doors isn't a requirement btw, but a legitimate back seat for the kiddos is.

 

[Stokdgs]

+1 with Angus --

Have had 5 Bimmers, 3 were brand new, (1 was an M car) 2 were gently used..
Been a member of the BMWCCA for 15 years...

Nothing else drives and handles like them; they are Driver's cars...
To achieve that, they do some interesting things to the alignment of the wheels and this can cause rapid wear of the tires - especially the rear ones, so you need to adjust for that if you are intending to look at a high performance model..

I absolutely Loved the E46 models and the E39 models, and after that the design went a little nutty with Chris Bangle at the helm..

Have worked with some great German Car Mechanics at the best shop in the East Side of Bellevue, WA., personally detailed some beautiful Audi cars and seen the horrendous modular stacking they do with some of their models in the engine compartment..

There are some Audi cars out there that have the timing belt between the engine and transmission, so you have to remove Everything in the engine compartment and pull out the engine and transmission to change this...
In some cases, the cost to do this is more than car is worth...

It is pretty darn hard to beat the beautiful layout, leather, feel of the switches, etc., in an Audi dashboard and interior... They are incredibly beautiful and functional...

Bottom line - all German cars will cost a lot more to maintain - it's just how they work...

But what they give you in return - its wonderful - you just have to decide if it will be worth it to you to maintain them..

The Lexus line is very nice too and I had a new IS350 for a year and took it back... It was just too squirrely at high speeds.. I hear they have finally figured that out and made changes to their suspension, etc...
The Lexus cars will always be more reliable and perhaps less costly to maintain long term..
Downside to me - its like driving a very nicely appointed, beautiful interior, sound system, etc., Appliance...

Me, I am going to probably get a really nicely restored used Honda or Acura from my great friends at Home for my daily commuter and park the Grand Cherokee 4x4 Limited for awhile..

It will need zero $$$ to make it street worthy after I buy it and I can drive it anywhere across the US the day I leave the lot... These guys know everything there is to know about the Honda/Acura lines and do not sell anything that's junk.. They dont buy from Auctions and prefer to find 1 owner cars from the original owner, so they know what they are getting into..

Easiest car in the world to maintain.. you just need to replace the timing belt at 90k miles...

Good luck with your research !
Dan F

 

[The Driver]

VOLVO S60R OR VOLVO V70R

They come in 6 speed stick, fun, reliable, safe, good on gas, rare and a blast to drive with 300/300 awd

 

[Ronkh]

LOVED my BMW's

Loved my Audi, but it left me on the side of the road 5 times in under a year search $VW$

 

[Swanicyouth]

If I was you I'd be looking for a MANUAL E46 M3 post 2003.

Same drivetrain as my E85 M. Requires some maintenance that can be a bit costly, but they are very reliable. Not much can equal the driving experience for the money with the reliability factor.

Plus there is so much info out there on these cars - most things you can fix yourself. All the maintenance can be DIY.

I wouldn't touch a V8 BMW. Not nearly as reliable.

It could be just me, but I'd never buy an Audi or Mercedes outside of warranty. I've driven BMWs for 10+ years and never had a single out of warranty repair I couldn't do at home. My M has yet to need a single repair (like not even a light bulb) at 7 years old. So, I'm prolly BMW biased.

Of course Lexus is reliable. But, I don't think their sedans are anywhere near as fun as BMWs to drive. IMHO Acura just makes ugly cars.

 

[Ronkh]

IMHO Acura just makes ugly cars.

:rockon

 

[Stokdgs]

+ 1 with Swanicyouth and RonK-----------------

If you decide you want to look at used Bimmers, I can PM you my log in for the Online BMWCCA Roundel Magazine, which has a Classifieds section that sells a lot of nice Bimmers from people who are pretty much dedicated enough to keep paying dues for the Membership for years (like me), and you can check this out..
You may be able to look at the magazine anyway without being a member..
Let me know, ok ?
Dan F

 

[Ronkh]

+ 1 with Swanicyouth and RonK-----------------

If you decide you want to look at used Bimmers, I can PM you my log in for the Online BMWCCA Roundel Magazine, which has a Classifieds section that sells a lot of nice Bimmers from people who are pretty much dedicated enough to keep paying dues for the Membership for years (like me), and you can check this out..
You may be able to look at the magazine anyway without being a member..
Let me know, ok ?
Dan F

and me, but think it may expire now,

gotta re-up so I get my 1500, when I get another

 

[Stokdgs]

and me, but think it may expire now,

gotta re-up so I get my 1500, when I get another

so I get my 1500, when I get another[/QUOTE]

And that is yet another reason I'm still a member... but I DO like to know about them and you know, the 2Series with the turbocharged 2.0L motor might just be the new way to go...
I hear from friends its like the last "True" Bimmer out there now, with the 3Series growing, the 4Series really growing, and on and on...
Dan F

 

[House of Wax]

If I was you I'd be looking for a MANUAL E46 M3 post 2003.

Same drivetrain as my E85 M. Requires some maintenance that can be a bit costly, but they are very reliable. Not much can equal the driving experience for the money with the reliability factor.

Plus there is so much info out there on these cars - most things you can fix yourself. All the maintenance can be DIY.

I wouldn't touch a V8 BMW. Not nearly as reliable.

It could be just me, but I'd never buy an Audi or Mercedes outside of warranty. I've driven BMWs for 10+ years and never had a single out of warranty repair I couldn't do at home. My M has yet to need a single repair (like not even a light bulb) at 7 years old. So, I'm prolly BMW biased.

Of course Lexus is reliable. But, I don't think their sedans are anywhere near as fun as BMWs to drive. IMHO Acura just makes ugly cars.

That's kinda what I'm trying to pinpoint. I somewhat enjoy wrenching on cars and have always done my own maintenance and repairs. I just don't want to get something that I'm working/spending money on more than I'm driving it or end up with a car that has major problems that more or less NEED to be fixed by a dealer.

The vast majority of Mercedes do nothing for me and Acura's look decent, but don't catch my eye. From the brief browsing that I've done it seems like the Audi's are more notorious for nightmare repairs and generally I like the look of BMW's better. I do like some of Lexus' cars.

 

[House of Wax]

+ 1 with Swanicyouth and RonK-----------------

If you decide you want to look at used Bimmers, I can PM you my log in for the Online BMWCCA Roundel Magazine, which has a Classifieds section that sells a lot of nice Bimmers from people who are pretty much dedicated enough to keep paying dues for the Membership for years (like me), and you can check this out..
You may be able to look at the magazine anyway without being a member..
Let me know, ok ?
Dan F

looks like i can view the classifieds without a login. Unfortunately nothing anywhere near me. Thanks for the help!

 

[mnehls86]

VOLVO S60R OR VOLVO V70R

They come in 6 speed stick, fun, reliable, safe, good on gas, rare and a blast to drive with 300/300 awd

I shouldn't have read this haha. I have been thinking about a new car to drive back and forth to work but this is a little more than I was looking to spend. But it looks so awesome! The only downside is when I hear rare I think $$$$$$$$$$$ for parts.

 

[RMD]

+2 on the e46 BMW. I bought one new in 2002 and put 200,000 miles on it. Then I gave it to my dad and he is still driving it. There were repairs along the way, and it's not inexpensive to maintain by any means, but it's certainly not outrageous. It was absolutely solid, and I miss that car. I love my newer 5 series, but there was something so pure and balanced about that e46.
A well maintained one with a manual trans will be reasonably priced and should last a while.

 

[kenny.bacon]

I'm finishing up my bachelors in Automotive Technology and I have detailed most my way through this college experience. I've detailed a lot of domestic, Japanese, and European cars of various different qualities. A lot of the cars we do repairs and maintenance on in school are BMW's, Audi's and Mercedes. My professor worked for BMW for a long time before he decided to do the instructor route. Everybody is right about european vehicles being pricier to do maintenance on. I love Japanese cars mechanically, I love European vehicles mechanically even more They both are doing some next level stuff right now. However it is my opinion when it comes to interiors specifically you can tell a drastic difference in quality of materials. I have a much less difficult time with carpet extractions on any Mercedes, BMW or Audi than I do with a Toyota, Honda, Subaru etc. Considering this is a detailing forum I think it's safe to bet you care about the upkeep and looks of your vehicle. So that being said I 100 percent recommend a european. If you do go with a japanese or domestic again, grab yourself a luxury model like lexus, or Infinity, Cadillac etc. It'll make your day better when you have to clean up after the kids. I have two of my own trust me on it. lol

 

[The Driver]

I shouldn't have read this haha. I have been thinking about a new car to drive back and forth to work but this is a little more than I was looking to spend. But it looks so awesome! The only downside is when I hear rare I think $$$$$$$$$$$ for parts.

Nah, parts are definitely more affordable then you think, I love it because Bosch makes ever main replaceable part possible for it. The only thing that are expensive are the struts because they are electronic (Adjustable in 3 modes, so you go from floaty grandma to track spec hardness in half a second). I love mine, it's a tank, quick, handles on rails and destroys the elements. Maintenance is super easy and hey you can tow stuff too, I have (Jet-skis) haha.

Randy Pobst just bought my friends to use as his daily, if that doesn't say something I don't know what does.

 

[mnehls86]

Nah, parts are definitely more affordable then you think, I love it because Bosch makes ever main replaceable part possible for it. The only thing that are expensive are the struts because they are electronic (Adjustable in 3 modes, so you go from floaty grandma to track spec hardness in half a second). I love mine, it's a tank, quick, handles on rails and destroys the elements. Maintenance is super easy and hey you can tow stuff too, I have (Jet-skis) haha.

Randy Pobst just bought my friends to use as his daily, if that doesn't say something I don't know what does.

Very cool! Well it might be a few months but I will keep my eyes open. Was only able to find 1 6 speed manual in the 100 mile radius for a decent price. Maybe a great deal will pop up soon.

 

[The Driver]

Very cool! Well it might be a few months but I will keep my eyes open. Was only able to find 1 6 speed manual in the 100 mile radius for a decent price. Maybe a great deal will pop up soon.

Check swedespeed classifieds, your best bet is to get one with around 70k or less. You'll be saving alot in preventive maintenance since most like the timing belt and struts are around 90k. I just did my T-belt, coil packs, water pump, Idler pulley and exhaust manifold gaskets. All in all it was around 2500 but I haven't put a dime other then tires an some goodies since I bought it at 55k an now have 90k 2.5 years later.

The best are 05+ manuals or 06+ auto's because they come with an upgraded stronger 6 speed that can launch alot harder. Be prepared to travel for one, they are tough to get an sell very quickly. I only had to travel 150 miles for mine but was prepared to travel 500+

Edit: Ryan Lemark another member and detailer on here has one, also in NY.

 

[4u2nvinmtl]

As far as I know all Impreza's including the WRX edition have Ringland engine issues (motors frequently fail at the 100,000-mile mark). I'm not sure if AWD may be a requirement, but the 4 door Infinity G37x or the slightly cheaper Infinity G35x are rather nice all around and kinda fit the bill.

BMW 335's are nice too. I have two friends that each own one and have said nothing but good things.

Another friend who had an Audi S4 complained it burned too much oil and another friend with an A4 would rather walk due to the constant issues (I'd avoid the older lower model Audi's).

If you were thinking domestic I'd say: SRT8, CTS-V, or Mustang...