Rotary for light swirl removal?

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kb798

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Would it be possible to use a rotary as an all-inclusive machine, where it can tackle the toughest of problems to very light swirl/marring correction that would typically be done with a PC?



I gather that most people use both of those tools, since a rotary can cause mircomarring and the like, but I'd like to stick with just the rotary if possible.
 
You can do everything from heavy duty work to light polishing with a Rotary, I mean b4 a PC what else was there (expect Air Polishers and the Cyclo maybe)? Yet the work got done.



It's not the rotary machine per se causing the micro marring, it's the operator not "finishing" out his/her work with a lighter polish and pad combination.



On my Brilliant Black Audi I'll always finish the panel off with a polishing pad and a light cut product (low rpm's). That will remove any 'marring" caused by the previous buffing.



If the panel only has light marring to begin with then I'll start off with a the same pad combination
 
In my experience it is possible but the degree of difficulty in finish polishing with a rotary compared to using a D/A machine is much higher, especially with some of the softer paints out there. I don't think there is much of a time difference between using the two machines to do finish polishing either. I think you'd save yourself much frustration by getting a PC in addition to your rotary.
 
Yeah, *IF* (and that's one huge "if" IMO) you can get a flawless, hologram-free finish every time then I suppose you could get by with just a rotary. It'd be like using a chainsaw to prune your rosebushes though ;)



The PC/Cyclo is *so* versatile that I can't see not having one. The rotary is, IMO, something to add to the mix, not something that replaces every other tool.



MorBid- Heh heh, yeah, us old Cyclo hands consider the PC to be the new kid on the block. The Cyclo model #5 is maybe, oh, 50-some years old, pretty good production run for a tool of that type, huh?
 
What is it about the rotary that makes it so difficult to get a hologram-free and flawless finish? I would imagine with the right pad, product, and speed combination it shouldn't be difficult?
 
Rotary polishing is very unforgiving. Even when you have the right product, pad and speed combination you still have tempo, heat, pad angle, etc. to contend with. Lots going on with little room for error.
 
kb798 said:
What is it about the rotary that makes it so difficult to get a hologram-free and flawless finish? I would imagine with the right pad, product, and speed combination it shouldn't be difficult?
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A while back, a well respected Autopian was PMing me about how he was gettng holograms with just PI-III MG and a soft pad :nixweiss That never happened for me, but it's not like he was doing anything dumb...



Consider that Mike Phillips of Meguiar's, who's been an expert professional with the rotary for decades, still considers the PC-follow-up to be virtually mandatory for the cars he does.



I've never had any *bad* holograms myself, but still, I don't see the point in using a rotary for jobs that don't require its aggressiveness. Why use an elephant gun to shoot mice? I find the Cyclo just *so* much easier to use that I'd rather use it whenever it'll do the job. And since even the *lightest* holograms are utterly unacceptable to me, I just assume they're there and do the Cyclo-follow-up after the aggressive rotary work (which is the only kind of work I do with the rotary). I'd sure hate to have an unpleasant surprise in certain lighting, and I can't always pull the car out into the sun to check for holograms.
 
It does take a higher level of skill and concentration to finish with a rotary. It also takes the right tools(polish and pads). I have to "feel" like it to finish with the rotary. About 80% of the time I will go with the rotary, W8006 and FPII(or 85RD) and there wont be a hologram or buffer trail in sight. I have been told that when the "oils" from the polish dry up/go away that the trails would appear. They didn't and that was with no LSP of any kind on the hood of my own car with that good old soft black Honda paint. I know that Sean is more than capable of this also.



It could be the issue the Mike has is that I don't know of a "finishing" polish that Meguiar's offers that is for rotary use.
 
Well, yeah, come to think of it, I'll say that there aren't any Meg's polishes that *I* would use to finish by rotary so that might very well have something to do with Mike's approach. Gotta admit I haven't used the rotary with #9 since forever (about 20 years before it was reformulated IIRC).



I'm really not doing much significant correction these days anyhow, so people oughta consider my opinions about the rotary in that light. If I can avoid taping, worrying about sling, etc. then I'm gonna take the idiot-proof route.
 
I recently did a detail in Summerville and decided to use a rotary with Optimum Polish/LC Polishing Pad. I did nothing different that I know of from past details, and although I never had really bad experiences with a rotary, this combo left a nice, hologram-free finish. I had to keep checking in direct sunlight trying to find flaws but found none. This is the first combo I have used that gave me these results, so I can only figure that the products used made some kind of difference...unless I just got lucky LOL!
 
Funny you should say that about Optimum Polish. It didn't work for me on an E Class using a finishing pad. I felt like it was my first time with the rotary again. Out came the PC.
 
The reason why I ask about using the rotary as an all-inclusive method is because I already have a PC 7336 which I've used for several years now, but the amount of noise it makes irritates my neighbors. Someone had suggested that I dynomat the PC, but that could cause the PC to overheat prematurely.



I figure using a rotary at a lower RPM will be quieter than polishing on 6 with the PC, and it would save me time as well.
 
Do you have any suggestions? My polishing arsenal right now consists of the old Menzerna IP/FP, and an aging huge bottle of Meguiar's DACP. I'm not sure my 6.5" pads would work the rotary, so I might pick up some new ones anyway.
 
kb798:



I've used anywhere from 3" to 8" pads on a rotary, U just need the right backing plate



Accumulator:



I never would've thought that the Cyclo had been around for so long. You got me there.



I would like to also go on record about what I mean by "finishing" as there does seem to be two ideas.



1) Final Finish - Used with a Finishing Pad (which have no cleaning capabilities) and LSP's



2) Finishing up with a Rotary - Stepping down through the PPI (coarseness) of pads to produce a even finish. I.E. you can't work a panel with a light/medium/heavy cut pad/polish and stop there.



A rotary polisher (either air or electric) works by generating heat and a PC just rubs (like you would by hand) but a lot faster.



Would I use a rotary tool for 1) above? Certainly not. Actually with the newer LSP's on the market today, which don't require long setup periods on the panels and intense rubbing to remove, I can get around a car faster by hand making the machine (whatever it is) more of burden
 
MorBid said:
I never would've thought that the Cyclo had been around for so long. You got me there...
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Heh heh, being up in years finally pays off for me :D Yeah, people have been using Cyclos since pretty much forever, started out as a polisher for aluminum travel trailers and airplanes. You oughta see the really old three-head ones, they're monsters!



Yeah, roger the distiction between "finishing" and "final polishing". I find I don't really need heat for the final polishing but just *so* much of this stuff depends on the individual situations and all the little variables.



KB798- That FP oughta be a good choice. Some people get a flawless finish with #83 but I don't think I'd expect it on black or dark blue. As long as you don't run into one of those problem-cars, you might be just fine with only the rotary using the FP for the final step. If/when you do get holograms, if they're light ones from the FP you should be able to fix 'em by hand with a little effort.



But for the LSP (and glazes, etc. too), I'd do it by hand so you don't risk undoing all your work at the last step. I'd like to say "get a Cyclo" but I dont' think it's any quieter than the PC.
 
Accumulator said:
Yeah, roger the distiction between "finishing" and "final polishing". I find I don't really need heat for the final polishing but just *so* much of this stuff depends on the individual situations and all the little variables.
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yup by that time I'm on the lowest setting my Dewalt has (1000 RPM's) with a clean polishing pad.



I just brought a new paint gun otherwise I'd look into one of those Cyclo's. I really want to see what they do as I've never seen one in use.
 
Well one thing for sure is that the rotary won't touch my car until I've had some practice with it - i.e. my parents' cars haha. Luckily they're not car aficionados so condition of the paint is absolutely horrible - only correctable with a rotary.



I do wonder, however, just how much quieter will a rotary be compared to a PC? I assume it's going to vary by manufacturer, but can anybody recommend a really quiet one?
 
I'm not sure they even list a spec for that. I looked for it on Dewalt's website (I use a 849) and there's nothing there.



Mine makes about as much noise as using a 12V cordless electric drill
 
With careful usage and many hours of practice a rotary can be used exclusively for all polishing needs.

A rotary is not a machine to be feared but demands some respect. Unlike a PC, a rotary performs work and must be respected for such and learned practices on how much work (speed, pad selection, applied pressure, duration, polish abrasiveness requirements, etc) is required to repair a surface blemish.
 
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