Recommendations for Wet Sanding Lacquer Paint

Rob Tomlin

Rob Tomlin

Lotus Exige S
I am going to be trying to salvage a 30 year old lacquer paint job on my friends 1966 Chevy II Nova that he just picked up.



The paint is in bad shape. There is lots of etching, shallow scratches, and oxidation. We have decided that we will wet/color sand the car.



We don't know how much paint is left, but it is lacquer, so we won't be shocked if we do go down to primer in some spots. The car will need to be repainted eventually. This is to make it look as good as it can for the next 10 months or so until it can be repainted.



Questions: first, what grit should we use for the color sanding? My friend wants to use 1500, but I think that is too coarse, especially on a lacquer paint. I was thinking of using 2000.



I have M105. Will this be strong enough to follow the wet sanding with 2000 or 1500? Or do I need something with more cut to remove the sanding scratches?



If I need something stronger than M105, what would you recommend? My friend has some 3M Perfect it II Rubbing Compound, would that work (I'm not familiar with the 3M line)?



Finally, and I will probably find out on my own after doing one panel, but anyone familiar with the old lacquer paints, do you think I might actually be better off using my PC than the rotary, given how soft the lacquer paint is?



Any other tips/recommendations are welcome. I'd prefer not to screw up my first wet sanding job! :nervous2:
 
if this is single stage paint you'd be surprised how much dead paint a decontamination system(I MUCH prefer valugard stuff) will remove.
 
Rob Tomlin said:
...I have M105. Will this be strong enough to ...
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Strong enough for lacquer? Meg's had to extend their cutting scale because it didn't used to go high enough for M105.



And people were using Megs' old products to cut scratch in lacquer for the better part of a century before M105 was invented.



M105 was designed primarily for modern urethanes. Not sure how it will behave on an old, soft lacquer. Do a test spot and keep a very close eye on it.





pc.
 
the other pc said:
Strong enough for lacquer? Meg's had to extend their cutting scale because it didn't used to go high enough for M105.



And people were using Megs' old products to cut scratch in lacquer for the better part of a century before M105 was invented.



M105 was designed primarily for modern urethanes. Not sure how it will behave on an old, soft lacquer. Do a test spot and keep a very close eye on it.





pc.
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Thanks, this is exactly the kind of thing that I am concerned about! Should I start with something more mild that m105? The paint is a real mess, so I doubt something like SIP will be strong enough, but who knows since we are dealing with lacquer?
 
I think I'd consider going old-school and using Meg's M02 Fine Cut, probably on a fairly mild wool pad. I haven't tried it since it was reformulated, but the older versions I used (on ss) had *strong* chemical cleaners as well as pretty potent abrasives. I'd follow that with M80. I'm just not 100% sold on using M105/M205 on single stage, generally speaking but I'll admit that's primarily just my gut-feeling (though my conversation about this with Mike Phillips reinforced that feeling).



PI-II (assuming it's the "Fine Cut Rubbing Compound") is nice on ss, but a) doesn't work that well on poor-condition paint as it apparently has minimal chemical cleaners and b) will kill you dead just like asbestos unless you wear the proper mask. I leave mine on the shelf and suggest that your pal does the same.



If you sand it, I wouldn't resort to 1500 myself, but compare that to whatever buffer barry suggests ;) Keep repeating "this is my first wetsanding job and it's not my car"...I'd *not* sand it.



The PC might pigtail, esp. with aggressive stuff. Even *I* would use the rotary for most of this job, just be really gentle/careful/aware.



If it's *really* oxidized/dried out I'd pretreat with M07 (can elaborate if necessary).
 
Accumulator said:
I think I'd consider going old-school and using Meg's M02 Fine Cut, probably on a fairly mild wool pad. I haven't tried it since it was reformulated, but the older versions I used (on ss) had *strong* chemical cleaners as well as pretty potent abrasives. I'd follow that with M80. I'm just not 100% sold on using M105/M205 on single stage, generally speaking but I'll admit that's primarily just my gut-feeling (though my conversation about this with Mike Phillips reinforced that feeling).



PI-II (assuming it's the "Fine Cut Rubbing Compound") is nice on ss, but a) doesn't work that well on poor-condition paint as it apparently has minimal chemical cleaners and b) will kill you dead just like asbestos unless you wear the proper mask. I leave mine on the shelf and suggest that your pal does the same.



If you sand it, I wouldn't resort to 1500 myself, but compare that to whatever buffer barry suggests ;) Keep repeating "this is my first wetsanding job and it's not my car"...I'd *not* sand it.



The PC might pigtail, esp. with aggressive stuff. Even *I* would use the rotary for most of this job, just be really gentle/careful/aware.



If it's *really* oxidized/dried out I'd pretreat with M07 (can elaborate if necessary).
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Thank you very much for the response. I can still get to my local detail shop to pick up a different compound if needed, as all we have right now is the m105 or the 3m rubbing compound.



My friend and I have been talking about this for the last week, and we do consider the possibility of NOT sanding, but we always come back to the fact that the paint really is fairly bad, with lots of etching, some webbing, etc throughout. My friend has wet sanded before (I should know: it was MY car that he painted and wet sanded) but that was a LONG time ago (1985 to be exact)! ;)



Anyway, in the end, we have pretty much resigned ourselves to the fact that we WILL be wet sanding this car. We will be going in baby steps as needed, and we will probably try a small area with just rubbing compound first to see how it will polish out without sanding.



I think using the rotary makes sense, but I have read of people being able to take sanding marks out with the PC too (see this video for example: YouTube - Wet Sanding 101 - Part 3



Really, the hardest part now is deciding exactly what compound and pad to use following the wet sanding. We have 2 wool cutting pads, and I have some foam cutting pads too.



After the sanding and compounding, I am thinking of going with Menz SIP (another polish meant for clear coats, but I know it works well on single stage paint because I use it on my yellow single stage paint) with PFW.



Again, any and all advice is appreciated.



Oh, and Barry, I am not sure how to get your number? Thanks for the offer to call, I will take you up on that tomorrow afternoon if you are available.



ETA: found your number in your profile, thanks Barry.
 
Rob Tomlin said:
Accumulator, when you say "fairly mild wool pad" would the PFW meet that criteria, or is that too fine?
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I was thinking more along the lines of the Edge blue wool, the PFW would probably be OK but more aggressive.



[Repeat my broken record: "man, I wouldn't wetsand it..." ]



Are you *sure* it's lacquer and not enamel? I ask because some ss enamels don't respond well to wetsanding and I mean you'll kill that paint dead.



I myself would be OK with some residual marring on ss, it's just not like b/c with regard to how significant such stuff is (just IMO of course). While b/c often needs to be (at least clost to) flawless to look OK, ss can look nice even when it's pretty messed up. It's just....I dunno, *different*.



BUt yeah, the PC with 4" pads can usually handle ~2K sanding scratches, esp. with the little PFW pads. It can take some doing though.



I was thinking of the rotary with regard to pigtails from aggressive products, and also "smooth cutting" of the ss paint, which will probably cut differently than b/c usually does (note all the "probably"/"usually" disclaimers ;) ).



I can't help but wonder what Mike Phillips would say :think:
 
Barry, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me about this. Much appreciated, and your timing was perfect as I had just walked into my local detailing supply store.



I think I have my friend convinced that we will not wet sand the whole car, but will only do spot sanding where needed.



Accumulator said:
I was thinking more along the lines of the Edge blue wool, the PFW would probably be OK but more aggressive.



[Repeat my broken record: "man, I wouldn't wetsand it..." ]



Are you *sure* it's lacquer and not enamel? I ask because some ss enamels don't respond well to wetsanding and I mean you'll kill that paint dead.



I myself would be OK with some residual marring on ss, it's just not like b/c with regard to how significant such stuff is (just IMO of course). While b/c often needs to be (at least clost to) flawless to look OK, ss can look nice even when it's pretty messed up. It's just....I dunno, *different*.



BUt yeah, the PC with 4" pads can usually handle ~2K sanding scratches, esp. with the little PFW pads. It can take some doing though.



I was thinking of the rotary with regard to pigtails from aggressive products, and also "smooth cutting" of the ss paint, which will probably cut differently than b/c usually does (note all the "probably"/"usually" disclaimers ;) ).



I can't help but wonder what Mike Phillips would say :think:
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Well, you are right about the wet sanding, and we are not going to do the whole car, just some spot sanding.



I tried to get some M02 today, and the store I was in had TONS of Mequiar's stuff, but, of course, NOT the M02! :wall



Barry recommended 3M's Extra cut compound, but they didn't have 3M products, so I picked up some M95 instead.



Initial plan of action: 1)compound with M95 and PF wool pad (I also have regular wool pads) 2) follow with Menz SIP and PF wool 3) finish with Menz 106ff and finishing pad.



We will spot sand with 2000 as needed.



Will also adjust the above plan of action as dictated by the results!
 
BTW, Accumulator, the guy at my local detailing shop called Jason at Mequiar's to ask him what he thought about using M105 on the lacquer paint, and he confirmed that M105 was probably not the best choice.
 
I would do some test spots with some milder polishes first...the older Megs line works very well on old oxidiZed SS paints. M01, M02, M80...



This was done doing the following..



Buffing Process:



M01 with wool pad on rotary

M80 with W8006 on FLEX

M07 hand app

Gold class wax via PC





before

65_impala_2.jpg




65_impala_1.jpg






After

65_impala_6.jpg




65_impala_9.jpg
 
RaskyR1- Interesting that M80 (via Flex no less) was an OK follow up to M01.



Rob Tomlin said:
Initial plan of action: 1)compound with M95 and PF wool pad (I also have regular wool pads) 2) follow with Menz SIP and PF wool 3) finish with Menz 106ff and finishing pad...
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IMO the last step is risky. Using 106FF after wool (even PFW) could *VERY* easily lead to the weird "106FF filling issue" that I observed on my Yukon, and on that vehicle the pre-106FF step was a lot milder than that. And the guy who did the work was somebody who's *VERY* good (and highly regarded here), so if it can happen to him it can happen to anybody.



I use something else to get things perfect and *then* do a final polishing with 106; I never rely on 106 (at least not 106FF and I dunno which 106 I have as it's relabeled) to actually *correct* anything even mild stuff that it *can* fix.



If it's really lacquer, I'd use some Meguiar's Pure Polish on it before the LSP. Anything other than M07 oughta only take a few minutes.
 
Well, 10 hours in, and man, this paint was really a mess.



When I got to my friends house this morning and saw the paint again, I realized that I had forgot how bad it was, and why I was thinking we were going to wet sand it to begin with. I did compound a section of the hood for the heck of it, and it immediately became obvious that this car was going to be wet sanded!



Lots and lots of etching, RIDS and just plain crap embedded in the paint. So out came the 2000 grit paper, and away we went on the hood. Buffed. No dice. Still way too much crap in the paint!



In a nutshell, we wound up wet sanding the whole car with 1200 grit paper, and followed that with 2000. Believe it or not, even this combo was not overly aggressive for this paint. It just a bad paint job that was obviously done in someones garage.



We were very lucky that there appears to be quite a bit of paint on the car in general, though some of the body lines/edges are very thin, but that was the case before we ever touched the car.



We have the entire car compounded, and it looks a lot better, with a really good shine. It's still disappointing that there is so much crud in the paint and even after 1200 there are still RIDS remaining.



It what we call a 15 footer. It will look real good from that distance. ;)



Tomorrow we will polish, finish and apply the LSP.



Pics to come in the next couple of days.
 
Accumulator said:
IMO the last step is risky. Using 106FF after wool (even PFW) could *VERY* easily lead to the weird "106FF filling issue" that I observed on my Yukon, and on that vehicle the pre-106FF step was a lot milder than that. And the guy who did the work was somebody who's *VERY* good (and highly regarded here), so if it can happen to him it can happen to anybody.



I use something else to get things perfect and *then* do a final polishing with 106; I never rely on 106 (at least not 106FF and I dunno which 106 I have as it's relabeled) to actually *correct* anything even mild stuff that it *can* fix.



If it's really lacquer, I'd use some Meguiar's Pure Polish on it before the LSP. Anything other than M07 oughta only take a few minutes.
Click to expand...



To be honest, I might skip the 106ff completely. This paint probably doesn't deserve a fine finishing job! I really don't have any other options available....other than an old bottle of Poorboys SSR1 (and 2 for that matter).
 
Rob Tomlin- Well, I sure wouldn't do anything that won't really make a difference, especially at this point.



Glad to hear you got a handle on things, and that the paint was thick enough to withstand what you needed to do.



Actually, it sounds to me like you're making good progress for the time invested.
 
[edit - missed the 2nd page, so this isn't as relevant, though I'm wondering if you could have gone pure Flex/PC and done as well starting with a pretty aggressive polish]



My recommendation would be to polish the whole car and see what spots remain that need attention like wetsanding. You may find that what is left is worth living with vs. the risk. At a minimum, you'll know where the real problems are.



A local guy borrowed my GlossHaus kit to use on a BMW E30 he'd picked up for $250. It has SS paint, and after washing and clay still looked like this:



6214_707373540618_2706563_42320382_.jpg


6214_707373565568_2706563_42320387_.jpg


6214_707849776238_2706563_42348559_.jpg




After three levels of GlossHaus polish, glaze and polymer/sealant wax: (as well as some work on the trim, etc.)

DSC_7626.jpg


DSC_7624.jpg




I'd bet you can bring the lacquer back farther than you think without wetsanding.
 
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