Question about Menzerna polish/sealant

J

JRay

New member
I have been plagued by this for years. I have a silver car and I constantly baby my car with the best MF towels and bathe it in Klasse AIO and SG. My car looks absolutely amazing in the sun, in the dark, when it is dusk or dawn, but as soon as I get to work at 6am and park in my usual spot under some Flourescent lighting you can see very fine little scratches that I can never identify any other time!!



What is it about Flourescent lighting that causes you to see this? I had a black car before this and it was a NIGHTMARE to look at it under Flourescents. Is it the spectrum of light or the frequency of Flourescent lighting?



Is this something I should be worried about or does everyone else experience the same thing when they examine their car under flourescents?
 
I believe if you pointed a flashlight at the car at night or in a garage you would see those also. Carguy did a test with regular light and a bright spotlight(search for his ID and find the link to his website showing this.) With regular sunlight the car looked awesome. Once he put the spotlight on it you could see all of the swirls. I don't know anything about light reflection, but obviously it does something. For me, on my black car during the day or night, it is shining like crazy and you can't see the straight line scrathces(a couple, maybe, from too much QDing). When I pull it into a garage with the light on, the minor straight line scratches show up everywhere. And that is just a regular 75 watt bulb.
 
There is probably more science happening here than we care to know, but it sure is interesting how different lighting conditions and sources can affect the overall look of your vehicle. It seems to me that darker colored cars have this problem more so than lighter cars. It also seems as though indirect lighting does not enhance these blemishes as much as shining a light directly on the finish. That would explain why I don't see these in daylight because the sun produces a lot more indirect light.



I guess I may just have to face the fact that it will NEVER be absolutely perfect, but I sure would be curious to know the number of people that detail their cars religiously like myself that see these same minor scratches in these lighting conditions....guess it would make me feel a little better!
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by exodar [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>I have been plagued by this for years. I have a silver car and I constantly baby my car with the best MF towels and bathe it in Klasse AIO and SG. My car looks absolutely amazing in the sun, in the dark, when it is dusk or dawn, but as soon as I get to work at 6am and park in my usual spot under some Flourescent lighting you can see very fine little scratches that I can never identify any other time!!

What is it about Flourescent lighting that causes you to see this? I had a black car before this and it was a NIGHTMARE to look at it under Flourescents. Is it the spectrum of light or the frequency of Flourescent lighting?

Is this something I should be worried about or does everyone else experience the same thing when they examine their car under flourescents? [/b]</blockquote>
Exodar,
It's scary but you took the words right out of my mouth. I have a silver car also, have been using the best quality MF and cotton cloths, have AIO and 3 layers of SG but everytime I look at the car in the garage, which has fluorescent lighting, I see scratches and marring that makes me ill. Sometime I'm think it's a losing battle to try and maintain the paint. I HATE fluorescent lighting:mad:
 
You think silver is bad under Florescent, try Jet Black!! :eek:



I love Florescent lighting, shows whether or not I need to re-polish an area of the finish when using the Porter Cable. Love it so much I installed an addional two more Flor. light fixtures!
 
rad21:



I know how you feel. When I put all of this work in and I see these scratches it just makes me sick! I have incandescent bulbs in my garage because it is a detached garage and the flourescents won't fire in the extreme cold, and I don't seem to notice the scratches nearly as much.





ripsnort:



I had a jet black car before this and I remember the first time I pulled into a gas station at night and my jaw dropped. I thought something had happened to my car, but the next morning I couldn't see a thing so I knew it was lighting. I can see what you are saying about using the flourescents to your advantage because it helps you identify the problem areas, but it doesn't seem as though I am able to remedy the situation no matter how much effort and elbow grease I put into it. You mentioned that you use a buffer...how often are you buffing? Is all of that rubbing from the buffer really good for your finish? Won't it strip your clearcoat over time? If it works for you and it is a good safe solution I may consider.







At least it is good to see that I am not the only one with this problem. I know that I am washing my car properly with the best of care and these things still appear. Guess it happens to the best of us.
 
Exodar, I only polish with it 2 times a year (or plan to, just got it 1 month ago). Yes, over time the little swirls and such come back, then its time for another machine polish, the polish I use is a very fine grain, Machine Polish #3..it removes very little clear coat, and if you stay on top of it (every six months) then you don't have to remove more clear coat with a coarser polish.



Yep, florescent lighting can be your best friend or your worst enemy, kinda like the "half full, half empty" analogy. :D
 
Yup. Never park your car near fluorescent light!

Actually, I've found several lighting conditions that do this. I park the car I'm not driving in a secure warehouse. It is typical old construction, wood ceiling but way up there (probably 50'). There are a few skylights in the ceiling. This shows everything too. Bright light from a single point or two also seems to work. (This is really, really good when you want to <strong class='bbc'>objectively[/b] compare products, but it will drive you NUTS. )

The good news is that you LEARN to see this stuff. The specialized lighting only helps. And if you can get your car looking better under these condtions, I promise you will have learned something about how to use all your different products, AND you car will look even better in the sunlight.

Most of your less-obsessed (i.e., normal ;) ) friends will see your car in natural, diffuse light and they will all think your car looks great.
 
all of my family and friends think my car looks amazing, but I know all of the downsides of my finish. guess that is just a part of the obsession ;)
 
I guess it is relative to the level of obsession. My BMW was brand new when I started really taking care of it, but the Mustang was not. The Mustang is completely Klassed/Blitzed and looks incredible to the casual observer, but in "that certain lighting" I see little scratches and swirls that drive me crazy! I did the car about 2 1/2 months ago, but I am going to strip it and re-polish etc. I am also trying to get onto a November/May cycle, because the summers are just too damn hot to work in my garage....



H
 
I was talking with a friend who owns a paint and body shop. They have flourescents all over the shop. He can lower the lights down from the ceiling to adjust the distance between the light and the car. He also has flourescent tubes on the walls and on rolling carts. He said that if you can get it right under flourescent light it will look great everywhere else.



I've also been experimenting in my garage with using a very bright halogen spotlight to fill in less well lit areas. Holy cow this thing showed me things I hadn't seen before even after washing and waxing multiple times. It is helpful for waxing and polishing. Especially for wiping off the wax in my garage at night. The lighting makes any unwiped spots really stand out.
 
Yeah.



Couple other points - since I learned to "see", I have examined very closely every single black car I've seen at any car show. YYou have to assume these are the folks that try hardest as a rule. I haven't found one yet where swirls weren't visible.



I bought recently one of those double-headed 1000w halogen lights on an extensible tripod - it works really well, but it is hot - this is good for helping waxes to dry and polymers to cure but bad for dripping sweat onto the car (another one of my pet peeves when I'm polishing!)



My IDEAL would be a boatload of fluorescents on the ceiling, PLUS lights about 30" off the floor on all four sides of the car. But this is unfortunately too impractical for me. In my dream world I'd own my own spray booth, which would double as a detailing booth and garage. Dust-filtered air-circulation, plenty of compressed air and a drain......
 
lights from those sources come from one point or specific points. it probably provides the correct contrast for to bring out those little scratches and swirls that well diffused sunlight (from the atmosphere) is applied all over the car creating no many shadows.



you're also seeing the light bounce back from the car from the source only, it's a direct perfect reflection so if anything gets in the way you see that too.



if you're in a dark hallway with a lot of rooms like a hotel and you're looking down the hallway and someone shines a flash light sitting in one room (perpendicular to the hallway) to the other you won't see any light, accross the halway (unless the air is dusty) hope that wasn't to out there.
 
I think Steve's got it. Sunlight is an extremely diffused light source as is fluorescent (that is, when the fluorescent source is quite close to the target). However, when the fluorescent is hung from a standard, 30' above ground level (and a hundred or so feet from the next fluorescent) it becomes extremely directional as it illuminates the car below. Unfortunately, diffused light sources effectively mask the true shape of our finish whilst a directional light reveals all - bad news for obsessisive compulsives like us, er ... I mean, detailing aficionados like ourselves.
 
carguy,



Just wondering where you got your halogen tripod from. I saw one online at home depot for $40, 1000w, twin head.



Thanks,

Brian
 
I have another theory as to why flourescents show scratches more . . . if you look at the spectrum of a flourescent light, most of it is up in the reds and yellows, but there's a spike in the blue (this is not the case with incandescents or natural lighting). The wavelength of blue light is shorter than yellows and reds. If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be; I'm a programmer, not a physicist), more of the shorter waves would catch the edges of a scratch, causing it to be more visible than it would be in a warmer light.



Of course, I've just worked on my car for a few hours; I'm hot, tired, and I just drained a beer . . . I could be *waaaaaay* off. Physics class was many, many moons ago . . .



Just a thought,

Tort
 
TortoiseAWD:



That seems to be reasonable. It has been a while since college, but I seem to remember something about the excessive blue end of the spectrum with flourescents. Best explanation I have heard so far. That would explain why I see less scratches under incandescent light. It is a more natural light and is closer to the sun than flourescents.



Oh and by the way...nice to see another Subaru owner out there! How do you like that '02 Impreza? Yours is the same as mine. I just love it!!!
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by exodar [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Oh and by the way...nice to see another Subaru owner out there! How do you like that '02 Impreza? Yours is the same as mine. I just love it!!! [/b]</blockquote>Constant grins . . . it's everything I loved about my old Talon (AWD, turbo), with a better sorted-out chassis and suspension. I couldn't have asked for a car better-suited to me. I'm looking forward to next spring; I plan on a cat-back exhaust, wheels, and better rubber (stock tires suck, IMO). First, though, I need to buy snow tires for the coming salt-fest that is winter in Omaha. :mad:

Keep the turbo spooled and the tach pointing east, :D
Tort
 
Glad to see the shared experience on this subject. I had brought it up in earlier threads, expressing my dismay at the "micro-swirls" my new car has. And, even with great care, it is picking up a few more.

But, carguy makes a good point. While I have stood distraught, staring at "obvious" swirls, my friends have directly looked at the same paint and been knocked out. I have then had them stand in exactly the same place I was in, and look at exactly the same angle, and only with careful coaching can they <em class='bbc'>start[/i] to see the (micro) swirls. I have pretty much accepted that the fact that I can see the micro-swirls does not mean there is a practical problem. But, I feel much better hearing that many others have have observed this micro-swirl "problem."

As to car shows, I, too, was astonished to see that all the cars at the show I went to, except for two, had micro-swirls.

[I use the term "micro swirls" to differentiate from "real" swirls. I have seen swirls so bad, usually on black cars, that you noticed the swirls on the other car when in motion, driving by the swirled car, when your powers of observation are being largely taken up by driving. Now, that's some swirls.]
 
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