Pure wax, pure confusion.

JAGSBENZ

New member
I searched the forum, then searched again.



My question is:



Is Meguiar's #16 a PURE WAX? And #26?



I found conflicting results in this forum (and a few others). Some posts say that #16 is pure, some call it "low solvent". And then the debate over #26. It's "pure", but some say it has added polymers or something along those lines.



I have a clayed, cleaned, polished, AIO'd, SG'd, #16'd car in the driveway and want to add a few layers of #16 or even #26, but only if it isn't a fruitless effort. As this obsession grows, I want to nurture it with facts.



Any input?
 
#16 is a pure wax. It'd only a fruitless effort if it had cleaning agents. I also think more than 2 layers is a waste of time, energy, and product.



Not sure about #26.
 
What TW85 HHI said, except that I'll do more layers of #16, waiting maybe a week or more between them. And doing a spit-shine (with either water or Griot's Speed Shine) seems to add something to subsequent applications too. My wife didn't much like the look of #16 on her car until after the third application, which I did with the Cyclo and the spit-shine w/Speed Shine. Definitely a difference, she thought it was a very dramatic improvement and now she likes how it looks. Good thing I didn't stop after two coats or I would've ended up completely redoing the car with her previous favorite wax!



Havn't used #26 in a *long* time, but it oughta act about the same way, but will usually give a "darker/richer" look.



Don't worry about a wax containing "polymers", just watch for "cleaners". Most "pure waxes" contain a blend of different things, some natural, some synthetic. And they all have solvents of some kind, its seldom something to worry about.
 
If what you mean by "pure wax" is "a wax with no cleaners", then yes, both #26 and #16 are pure waxes. I'd guess that otherwise, both of them have some natural organic content, some natural mineral content, and some synthetic content.





Tom
 
My understanding was that #16 was the pure wax and #26 was a blend of polymers and carnauba.

One thing I can say is that I've used both and was happy with each of them. My feeling is that #16 was more like the old style waxes from the 50's and 60's that had much more durablity.
 
From their MSDS info:

#16 - Polymer Wax Blend 15-30%, Trade Secret Conditioners 2-10%

#26 - Polymer Blend 5-10%, Calcined Kaolin Clay plus several other synthetics at 1-5%



So both contain synthetics but #16 incorporates natural Carnauba into the wax emulsion. It is an old-style wax. #26 is a much more complex formula.



Both are "pure" waxes in that they contain no cleaners. Neither is "pure" with the meaning of being all natural.
 
A pure wax is a wax that has no cleaners or cleaning agents.Pure wax only has cutting agents.



"cutting agents" means a solvent carrier system?
 
OK I've had my third cup of coffee. Carnauba wax is very hard in its natural state and requires solvent or oil to soften (cut) it
 
I have often described a "pure wax" as any wax that does not contain agents that clean or polish the paint. Klasse AIO is a cleaner wax, whereas Klasse SG is not.



This distinction between cleaner wax and pure wax brings with it confusion over layerability. There are many waxes and sealants that qualify as a "pure wax", but don't layer. This generally has to do with the volume and type of solvents used in the wax blend.



In a Carnauba wax, the volume and type of "mineral spirit" is typically the factor that determines if a wax will layer on or remove previous coats of the wax or other products. In most cases, a Carnauba wax that does not contain polymer bonding agents will not be able to hang tough with an additional application.
 
AHA! It's all clear now. Thanks so much for all the responses!

  • A wax which does not contain cleaning or polishing agents is a pure wax (and can contain solvents and/or polymer bonding agents)
  • A pure wax which does not contain solvents (and also does not contain cleaning or polishing agents) is somewhat layerable
  • A pure wax which contains polymer bonding agents (and also contains no cleaning or polishing agents and no solvents) is layerable to a greater extent. (this would be considered a synthetic wax?)
  • A cleaner wax[/b] contains cleaning and polishing agents and is never layerable, regardless of solvents (or lack thereof), or polymer bonding agents (or again, lack thereof).

Iside a wax:

  • Cleaning and polishing agents do just that, taking any previous application of wax with them
  • Solvents soften the wax to make it more workable (along with softening up previously applied layers, and limiting the ability to layer)
  • Polymer bonding agents add strength and resiliance to the wax, making it more resistant to subsequent applications, and therefore layerable.



*Also, a polymer bnonding agent would be a type of "mineral spirit"? Are there other types of mineral spirits (maybe acrylic resin) that affect the ability to add subsequent layers of wax?



There is a tonne of information in this forum, and it's all great. I just want to make sure that I've processed it correctly.



I apologize if I have exceeded my question quota for the week, but this is an area many people seem to have issues with, might be nice to have it all laid out.
 
*Also, a polymer bnonding agent would be a type of "mineral spirit"? Are there other types of mineral spirits (maybe acrylic resin) that affect the ability to add subsequent layers of wax?



No, Mineral Spirits is a type of solvent. You can go to a paint store and see one gallon cans of Mineral Spirits. "Polymer Bonding Agents" and acrylic resins are not mineral spirits.
 
There isn't a carnauba wax around that does not contain solvents. Are you saying all carnauba waxes have a limited layering ability?
 
~One manâ€â„¢s opinion / observations~



Are you saying all carnauba waxes have a limited layering ability?Yes



Layering:

By applying another product on top of one that has already cross-linked you can increase its density (up to a point) the thin film of product that's applied isn't really another layer. Two to four cross-linked (cured) applications are usually considered optimum



Solvents provide a lubricant and aid the adherence process by working their way into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the previous `layer' softening it, providing each subsequent applications carrying agent (solvent, oils silicones or emulsion) are not so concentrated that they degrade or remove (as in the case of a cleaner wax) what has been previously applied.



Also be aware that the both the product and the foam pad may be non-abrasive, but application pressure if not kept to an absolute minimum and using use a very light and even pressure, may re-introduce surface marring and/or removal of the previously applied product.



~Hope this helps~



Knowledge unshared is experience wasted [each one / teach one]

justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ JonM
 
Nice thread. :up



Also, the "layering increases density not layers" explanation is fascinating. Makes sense.



Thanks TOGWT. :D
 
This is just an approximate guess but I'll assume that applying a send layer will give your something like 1.75 layers which I would interpret to mean the increased density you mentioned.



I've always done a second layer just to make sure I didn't miss anything & if I've increased the density then there's a lot of upside to the layering concept.
 
From the FAQ's at Meguiar's on Line:





12. Are multiple coats of wax beneficial? (Layering)





That depends on what effect you are looking for: protection or beauty.



Protection



If your looking for the maximum protection possible, then one or two thin coats of wax, maybe even up to three thin coats of wax, has the potential to create the most surface protection depending on the wax, the surface itself and whether or not sufficient time has passed in-between each application. Of course the law of diminishing returns states that you will not create exponentially greater layers of protection with each application, but Meguiar's knows that a second, and sometimes third application will insure uniform, thorough coverage over the majority of the surface, thus maximizing the protection.



Environmental conditions today demand more frequent washing and waxing in order to prevent costly damage to the outer layers of paint. Just as important as a second, and possibly a third coating of wax is to provide the maximum amount of protection in any one detailing session, (especially on the horizontal surfaces), it is also vitally important that you wax more often to maintain your finish. This is especially true if your car is a daily driver exposed to the elements and parked outdoors most of the time.



Beauty



Will more coats of a product make a finish deeper, darker, and wetter looking with each additional application?



In a word: Possibly



Generally speaking, when trying to take your car's finish to its maximum potential for clarity, gloss, shine and depth of color, there comes a point, or a plateau, that you will reach whereupon additional applications of either polish or wax will not increase the results of any of those categories. Of course, you are more apt to reach this plateau if your skill level is high and if the quality of your products is also very high.



These assumptions also assume that the surface in question is on



A brand new car

A car with a brand new paint job

An older car whose finish has been well maintained and is in excellent condition

An older car whose finish has been professional restored to excellent condition

If any of the above holds true, then you will most certainly hit the wall, so to speak, reaching that plateau of perfection whereby further applications will not improve the results of the previously applied coating. Your finish will have reached its maximum potential in appearance value.



After time goes by and this plateau you have previously reached begins to diminish, you can restore the paint to it's maximum potential again, quickly and easily by simply applying a new coat of the right wax or polish. This maintenance procedure will only act to restore the finish back to it's maximum potential and shouldn't be positioned, or confused with making your surface deeper, darker, shinier, etc. than it's maximum potential.



Once you hit 100% max potential, (or that plateau), it's time to stand back and admire the results, not continue to apply more and more coats.



Special Note: Ideas suggesting that repeated applications of a product will continue to increase optic clarity and gloss and protection are misleading you and your own common sense should enable you to understand that a finish, whether black, red, single-stage, clear coat, etc. has a limit to how perfect it can become.










Can Meguiars waxes Be Layered?



Meguiar's waxes can be layered, but two things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes), and 2) You must recognize that at some point, "The Law of Diminishing Returns" takes effect.



Layerable waxes



A Layerable wax, is a wax that the protective ingredients used in the formula (natural and synthetic), are such that the protective layer left behind will not only adhere to the paint, but in subsequent applications, will adhere to itself. It also means that the carrying agents, be they solvent, water or something else, cannot be strong enough or in high enough concentrations to re-liquefy the previously applied layer, thus removing it during your attempt to add another layer.



Layerable waxes are primarily pure waxes, or protectants (as synthetic formulas are referred to) that do not contain chemical cleaners, or solvents that will remove the previous layer.



There is an exception to this rule and that is that it is possible to first apply a cleaner wax, and then apply a pure wax or pure synthetic over it.



The Law of Diminishing Returns



(Thomas Malthus "Essay on the Principle of Population" published in 1798.)



While this theory is generally used to discuss topics as they relate to the areas of economics and politics, it is a model that can also be used to explain in this case, the complex action occurring at the microscopic level on the surface of your car's finish.



The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,



A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.



That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.



At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.



Of course, this all depends upon your definition of the word "Layer".



If your definition of the word layer follows that of Webster's Dictionary:



2 a: One thickness, course, or fold, laid or lying over or under another

Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer.



You cannot layer to the point of developing a measurable film-build without negatively affecting, or diminishing to some degree, the shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color etc. This is especially true if the product you're applying is not clear (in and of itself) to start with.



If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,



Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)



Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.

Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.
 
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