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imported_rlarsen462

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Black Audi + PC only (orange & white pads, and 105, 205) + noob = death



40 hours later, I've managed to do about half the car, and couldn't even bring out all the 105 swirls with 205 before I'm just done. Car basically looks worse than when I started. :wall



I'm either doing something wrong (other than not trusting myself with a rotary) or Audi uses melted diamonds for clearcoat. Perhaps both.



Anyone know any pros in the St. Louis area that I could throw money at to make this problem go away. My back and arms will thank you.
 
rlarsen462 said:
I'm either doing something wrong (other than not trusting myself with a rotary) or Audi uses melted diamonds for clearcoat. Perhaps both.
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I've seen people on this forum mention that Audi puts ridiculously hard clear coat on their cars.
 
Yes I do recall hearing that also, post some pic's see if we can give you a pointer or two to help you out. Also when I worked with a black G-35, I used my PC on 6 speed setting and that helped A LOT.
 
I have worked on Audi paint, namely the S4 clear coat. There is no way an orange pad and M105 would induce any marring or swirls into that paint. The paint is so hard that an orange pad + M105 will definitely finish almost-LSP ready. I think what happened is that you have removed many of the finer shallow swirls, thereby making the deeper swirls even more apparent. If that is the case, no amount of M205 is going to remove those swirls.



In my opinion, you have two options:



1) Get some Surbuf pads and continue working with M105 (get them at Welcome to Surbuf.com now and Elmo will ship it out by tomorrow)



2) Get some Menzerna Super Intensive Polish and use it with your orange pads



3) Work in smaller sections, say 1'x1', and apply more pressure and move slower.





The Surbuf pads will maximize the potential of M105 on any paint surface. This will help you achieve more cut from the compound on the DA without using a rotary and a wool pad.



The Audi Ceramic clear coats require polishes designed for scratch-resistant clear coats. M105, despite being a heavy cut compound, does not have the required properties to work effectively on the scratch-resistant coating.











Devilsown said:
Yes I do recall hearing that also, post some pic's see if we can give you a pointer or two to help you out. Also when I worked with a black G-35, I used my PC on 6 speed setting and that helped A LOT.
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The G35 paint is nowhere near as hard as the Audi paint. ;)
 
What year is it? The new german paints are harder than the older paint. Are you applying any pressure when you are polishing?
 
Alright, now that I'm a little calmer today (and could see the havoc I wrought on the car's finish in the sunlight)...



The car was completely wiped down with IPA so it's possible I've revealed things even in the panels (doors) that I didn't even touch.



What appears to be the case on the panels I did work was that I didn't touch the RIDS, but managed to induce a bunch of swirls using the 105 and orange pad. You're right in saying that even with the PC on 6 and bearing down on the thing with all my weight/strength, the 205 didn't do a hell of a lot to the damage done by the 105.



I applied the 105 with only moderate pressure, I didn't bear down as hard as I was with the 205 and white pad. All pads are 4" units.



Car is a 2007 S4.



I will try and get some pictures tonight to post. It's possible (likely) my inexperience is making me see things incorrectly.



Also, if I am going to order some of those Surbufs, can you tell me which ones? There's about 50 different ones it looks like on the site. Also, how many will I need?



At this point, doing the whole car at once is an overwhelming proposition so I believe I will do it in stages going forward, focus all my efforts on getting a single panel perfect, then maybe do the next panel another day, and so on.



Thanks for the help guys, I'm pretty discouraged that I appear to have spent 40 hours to make my car look a hell of a lot worse. I'm inexperienced, but I managed to get my old black Mitsubishi Eclipse looking near perfect, and a titanium metallic Miata I owned as well. The Audi is kicking my ***.
 
Ugh dude, i feel your pain. I spent a whole day on my 01 A6 and all i had was a PC with Orange and SIP. Lets just say i didnt get much correction done, we'll leave it at that lol.



But i think the Surbufs pads you are looking for are the "R" series. I've been looking in to these aswell and they look pretty promising.
 
I have a black audi coming this weekend for an over haul...plan of attack is megs solo yellow and 105, cyan hydrotec 105, tangerine hydrotec with 203, then black pad with 85rd for a long time!



its going to be a long 20 hour two day work weekend!
 
I'm about to the point where I would drive the damn thing to Orange County to have you do it...



Hopefully when I get the pictures up tonight you pros can give me a few tips on how to bring this thing back to life and prevent me from offing myself.



I wish there was a quality detail shop in the St. Louis area but as of yet I've been unable to find one.
 
I don't know how much harder Audi paint has gotten in recent years. But I was able to do a pretty good amount of correction on my 2001 A4 with an orange pad (5.5in) and SIP via PCXP.

It took about three solid passes (apply SIP, work down, remove, repeat) per section but I was able to get the majority of imperfections out. There are only a few deeper RIDS that are still visible from certain angles.

Alas, I was only able to get to the trunk before winter rolled in and have yet to do the entire car (will get to the rest in two weeks).

Since then I've added some yellow pads, M105 and smaller diameter pads as well.

Also have a sample order of Surbuf pads coming in as well.

The key is PRESSURE and multiple passes.

And if Audi paint really has become that much harder, then damn, I might have to switch over to BMW once it's time for a new car... :aww:
 
IME Audis are pretty consistent, namely, hard. Have been since forever. It's a feature.



rlarsen462- A looong-winded response follows.



Some sorta-random thoughts:



-Work one, small *limited* area until you find what works

-When applying pressure, don't overcome the pad's rotation to where it merely "jiggles"

-Prime the pads properly, esp. with M105

-Repeating- work small, and I mean *SMALL* areas

-Don't overwork the M105 to where it's hard to buff off

-Clean the pad *VERY* frequently, as in..."what, not again...sheesh!"-frequently

-Yeah, the M105 should finish out pretty well on Audi clear. I wouldn't go so far as to say LSP-ready (see it under a SunGun and you'd know what I mean) but it won't look messed up either

-Failure to clean the pads frequently/well enough *will* result in M105 leaving things looking messed up

-Spritzing with M34 can help with marring-free buffing of M105 residue

-You shouldn't need to/want to switch to M205 until things look mighty nice (after just the M105)

-Do the final M105 passes (yeah, passes *plural*) with a milder pad and less appllied pressure and buff off the residue even more carefully after those passes

-If you want to try Surbufs I'd use smallish ones (not 6") even though you don't apply a whole lotta pressure with those

-Something you don't want to hear: Audis oughta come with a Flex 3401 in the trunk. You might need one of those, or a rotary, for timely correction. But things can go *wrong* with those very fast too, compared to with the PC.



I don't mean to kick a guy when he's down, and I hope this doesn't sound insufferably offensive (and after-the-fact), but I'll risk it in an attempt to save you future frustration- you shouldn't spend hours and hours doing *anything* that's not working properly. Work a single one-foot-square section (or even smaller) and you can go through a whole lotta trial-and-error in an hour or so. Though it might take an hour or so to do a small area. It used to be somewhat common for somebody to spend an hour per panel, or *more*, doing correction on hard cleaer via PC. M105 can speed that up, but only so much.



If you think the M105 is causing problems, look at those problems and try to analyze them. Do they look like they're from when you wiped off the M105 after buffing, or from when you were machine polishing the area?



M105 shouldn't cause "damage"...products that were good for use on Audis *before* M105 came out (e.g., 1Z Pasta Intensiv) sure were risky like that though! So hey, it could be worse :D



On the SurBufs, note that no less an expert than Kevin Brown has said that they're best left to people with considerable experience. Things can potentially go wrong faster and worse with those than with foam pads. In this particular case, I'd think twice.



I've done this stuff on *very* hard clear with M105/M205 and the PC/4" approach. It *can* be done and it's not magic, or voodoo, or some mystical art; it's just abrading paint until it's smooth and level. I mention that to suggest a calmly objective, pragmatic mindset.
 
Accumulator, thanks for chiming in. I was actually hoping for some words from you, as I'd read other threads you'd posted in concerning Audis.



At this point, it's clear I made a number of noobish mistakes:



1) Worked like half the car with 105 and an orange pad (the same one, without cleaning), in poor light. Pretty much a recipe for frustration.



2) Was not consistent in my application methods, kept trying to figure out a way for it to do "better"



3) Tried to do the whole car in one big go



Addressing some of the other comments:



It sounds like the basic equipment I have should see me through this, although I may need more "soft" goods like pads. All I currently have are a selection of various colors of 6" pads (several years old now, I think they're old Sonus pads), 3 of the 4" orange pads from Excel, 3 of the 4" White pads from excel, and a single orange and white 4" pad in the "dimpled" (CCS?) style. Yes, I know, a hodgepodge. What other pads would you recommend, it sounds like I need something other than just orange to get the most out of the 105 work?



What I guess I need to know:



I should be doing most of the work with 105, it sounds like, as I should be able to get it a lot less marred than it is now using only 105, before switching to 205 for final work?



How do you "clean" a pad? You mean fully washing it (I use Dawn Power Dissolver in a bucket of water)? Or something else? About halfway through the 2 days of work, I starting periodically running the pad into a MF towel for a few seconds but it didn't seem to make a lot of difference in the results I was getting.



How often should I clean the pad? After every time I apply product to it and apply that to a panel? Or after several "passes" at that panel? When should I just change to a "new" (fully cleaned and dried) pad?



When you say "prime" the pad, you mean spread the product across the surface of the pad? I was using the Meguiar's Quick Detailer, not 34, should I get 34 specifically?



For lighting, I am not that well set up. I have a stand with the 2 big halogens, and a pocket sized (but super bright) Surefire LED flashlight. I didn't have any problem seeing the marring and stuff with the Surefire, but I can't see that well when I'm actually working with the PC.



One big thing: I am not quite sure how long I should work the product, I think that you may be on to something when you say the marring I'm seeing could be from dry product. How many times should I be moving the PC over the same spot in the area I am working before stopping and wiping off the product? Should I be going fast or slow back and forth?



I will definitely be taking it slower next time and focusing on getting a single panel done in a session, and working much smaller areas (although ~2'x2' was as big as I was working before).



I'm sure I will have some more questions, as I being the 'healing" process, haha. One thing is for sure, I have definitely had it made abundantly clear that I know a heck of a lot less about this than I thought I did going in. Consider the black Audi the school of hard detailing knocks I guess.
 
search the KBM method for a good primer on how to setup your equipment and how to work the M105.

for priming the pad, you basically take the orange pad and prime it by giving the pad a good even coat of M105 to begin with. Not dripping but imagine a cleanly buttered piece of toast. again, the KBM method will explain all that in detail.



take a 2x2 panel that is fairly indicative of the general condition of your car and keep working that one panel until you get the results you want.

then you'll have a much clearer idea of what needs to be done to the rest of the car.



depending on how many passes you're making, how often you'll need to clean the pad or switch to a new one will vary.

I'd say one or two big panels is about when a pad needs cleaning.

I too have never had much luck with the microfiber cleaning method.

i prefer using the brush tool and compressed air.



honestly i've found it much easier to buy a decent number of pads so I can just swap to a new one and clean them all when I'm done with my work.
 
Well, I did read a fair amount about the KBM and at least for part of the work I was putting the 105 (or 205) on the pad and spreading it out first...didn't seem to make a difference to my eye.



Working the same area with 105 in a couple of spots, to my eye, made the swirls worse, certainly nothing I would call LSP-ready. It's pretty clear I'm doing something fundamentally wrong, I just wish I could figure out what the heck it was.
 
hmm... if you're ADDING more defects then the only things i can think of are:

1. your surface was not thoroughly cleaned (and clayed if needed)

2. somehow you got a speck of something stuck in your pad (although I think this would be much easier to discover)

3. you're working the m105 too long and polishing with dried compound.
 
Car was clayed prior to starting the polishing, damage is far too uniform to be something caught in the pad and I had changed pads a few times during.



I'm betting on #3, which is why in my earlier post I was looking for specific instructions on how long to work the product, things to look out for, etc. I just don't know enough about how the product works, or should be used, I admit.
 
lol you sound like me last summer when I got my B7 A4. Will be doing a spring detail soon with a Flex and some new Hydro-Tec pads. Hope good results will in-sue!
 
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