Deanski said:
My background with Menzerna goes back a very long time, before Menzerna even had an entity in the USA. I was introduced to this line of products (non-Ceramiclear obviously) by an old time finish expert that works on Ferrari for a dealer in Greenwich, CT long ago. He had someone import these polishes for him when he had the chance to use these. He was also once involved in fine metals prior so knows the Menzerna polishes well.
You're still missing the point. These are spot polishes for fresh paint that has been shot with Ceramiclear.
What I will do at this point is have a contact that I have a Menzerna Germany provide a bit more insight as to first why these polishes were developed, which finishes they work with and proper technique.
Application and amounts have a driving force on how these polishes perform.
Since these are used in a production line environment, and used on fresh paint which differs from cured paint, results are quite different.
What you are seeing are the oils left behind for lubrication and suspension. Although they seem to "fill" they do not and nor is it's intent to "fill" when the polish has been reduced. It just lays on top of any finish, perfect or not.
As for heat/friction, it is a needed effect to properly make the abrasives and oil break down for a clean finish. Lack of heat and friction (friction generates heat), is where most of the problem stems from this oil left behind when using Menzerna.
Be aware that you are still using 106FF improperly. You did NOT use it on Ceramiclear finish which was the intention of this polish and why it has so much oil to provide lubrication for longer working time while the abrasives cut down the sanding marks on a Ceramiclear finish.
Just as 3M Ultrafina finishes wet, you have some oils left which with that product, you do not break down dry, but wet and wipe off. This too is used for "hard clearcoats".
You're better off with FP or any of the non-Ceramiclear for now. Just don't use the re-branded Menzerna.
If you want another way to use Menzerna, you should try some of the polishes used for wood polyester finishes. These are for soft clears done on wood, and leave a nice finish. PO91E works very well.
Deanski
So we agree. I have been telling people the same story for ever, so I agree with your background on the polishes...
But here is where we differ.
If something "fills" it fills, period. Again, I conceed that this is not the intention of the polish, but rather a side effect of taking a polish out of a controlled enviroment and placing it in a dynamic enviroment with a uncountable number of variables.
Whether or not it fills by design or not isn't important. What is important (as you stated) is that anytime this polish is not being used in a specific enviroment on PPG CC paint, you are using the polish against its intention and are running the risk of having defects show back up. Unfortunately, since, to my knoweldge, nobody here works for Benz, we are all using the polish incorrectly.
I have agreed, also, that it is the carrier or lubricants in the polish that act "mask" or fill the defects. 106ff can be amazingly reslient or stubborn when it comes to removing all of the carrier oils. This is why I recommend using Prep-Sol (as opposed to alochol) to remove the carrier from the paint and to fully inspect your work.
Also, I have used it on many Cermiclear finishes, and it has (for the most part) performed flawlessly.
I have heard from people in Europe that it is common knowledge that 106ff uses a parffin based wax as a lubricant? Maybe you can verify this as well (which would explain a lot of the problems)?
So while I agree with Jeff and you and everybody who says Menzerna isn't designed to fill, it still does. I understand how it fills and I understand that is because it is production polish being used "wrong" by everybody except Benz.
My beef with Jeff Silver is he won't admit this though. Many people have complained about having defects return, yet he claims it won't happen. On one hand he states that it doesn't have fillers and that the production people use it with no problem, but he completely ignores the fact that his customers (unless he is exporting it to Mercedes Benz) don't use it in the enviroment it is designed for. Instead of defending a product with the obvious potential for problems, why doesn't he steer them in the direction of another polish?
Basically he has called about 30 of us who have experienced "filling" (for whatever reason) liars and refuses to even acknoweldge the issue. Then it is up to people like you and I to figure out why this happens and under what circumstances, and how to avoid it.
In my experience, using 106ff (when used as a finishing polish) should ALWAYS be used on a pad with zero mechanical action (to avoid the microscopic damage that pads can instill/pad abrasion). I truely believe (after talking with pad manufactueres) that the lubrication of 106ff can "leech" into pad abrasion (usually 1/10 to 1/100 the depth of a typical microscopic "swirl") and be very difficult to remove with out the use of a solvent.
To avoid this use a finishing pad, work the polish for a long time (60 second or greater) and back the RPM down and burish. If worked for a long enough time with a non-mechanical pad, I have only had one instance of marring return after wiping with prep-sol (which was in front the moderator Pats300ZX). I was actually relieved that he witnessed this so I people can stop thinking I am making this up (or the other 30 people who have commented similar) and we can all work on a solution.
So we agree on a lot of points.
Friction is the end process that breaks down abrasives, heat is an unwanted result of friction. To my knowledge, no abrasive medium will fracture if placed in an oven...
