Polish, wax, seal - final thoughts?

[tCspool]

For my new Scion tC (flint mica w/tons of flakes) - I'm thinking this is my final decision and would once again like any input. This list is based on a week of browsing and asking questions - this seems like it might be the best fit at this point for my type of paint.



After washing and claying, I'm going to start with 1Z Einszett Paint Polish “Lack-Politur� to work on my surface scratches. I was going to use 1Z Einszett Extra Paint Cleaner Compound but I was told with soft paint (which I think my car has) - that the Extra might not be a good idea. Also was going to do the 1Z Einszett Metallic Polish Wax but again was told this might not make a difference if I have already done the 1Z Paint Polish beforehand.



Not sure if I should be using a glaze at any point or if the polish is a substitute or a compliment for glaze...please chime in.



Then, I'm going to use Natty’s Paste Wax (BLUE), and finish it off with Duragloss Aquawax (AW) #951. Although this seems somewhat redundant to me as Natty's puts on a final coat, some local guys said this will help extend the life of the wax coat without affecting the depth/shine of the wax. Truth to this?



The biggest dilemma I have had is what wax to seal up with. The Collinite #845 looked like a sure bet, but when I read that it might mute my flakes, I decided this might not be right for me. The DP MaxWax seems impressive, however I didn't see much of a difference in user opinions when it faces off with Natty's (and it's double the price).



Based on my new knowledge, since I will be putting down the 1Z polish under Natty's, I should be able to extend the life of the wax...

Use it alone or as a “topper.� Natty’s Paste Wax (BLUE) can be applied by itself for stunning results. Unfortunately, the life of a Carnauba wax is much shorter than a paint sealant. Poorboy’s recommends using Natty’s over a paint sealant for maximum longevity and an eye-popping wet gleam. It is clear and reflective which means layering it over a sealant like EX or EX-P will add another protective layer to your car while adding the richness of Carnauba.

Final thoughts/opinions/complaints? I want to get my orders in on Monday or Tuesday at the latest so I can spend my weekend making my car look beautiful.

 

[uzj100]

The IZ Paint Polish should be fine--especially if your car is new. You may be able to remove whatever marring you have with it on a white pad, if not step it up to an orange pad. It works nice on Toyota paint.



Here's a side view of my Landcruiser. I used IZ PP on it with and orange LC pad and it finished LSP ready.



IZ Glanz wax is a nice topper

 

[Ben Kenobi]

You should be fine with the PP and MP. If your car doesn't have much in the way of swirls I'd just go with the MP with either a white or yellow pad. I'll second the vote for Glanz Wax, it is so easy to use, gives a fantastic look and lasts months. Topping it with Natty's Blue is an excellent choice. Be sure to post some pics when you're done.

 

[tCspool]

The IZ Paint Polish should be fine--especially if your car is new. You may be able to remove whatever marring you have with it on a white pad, if not step it up to an orange pad. It works nice on Toyota paint.

I'm still working out figuring the right pads - however thats on another thread of mine

You should be fine with the PP and MP. If your car doesn't have much in the way of swirls I'd just go with the MP with either a white or yellow pad. I'll second the vote for Glanz Wax, it is so easy to use, gives a fantastic look and lasts months. Topping it with Natty's Blue is an excellent choice. Be sure to post some pics when you're done.

I think that the car has moderate swirls - so I guess I should do both the PP and MP.



Now you recommend Glanz Wax and topping it with Natty's. Aren't these both waxes and hence redundant?



Pics will be posted once I get everything finally figured out, ordered and dedicate my hours next week to detailing my toy.

 

[Ben Kenobi]

Agreed, if you have moderate go with PP first and then the MP. Both are easy to use and will leave the finish LSP ready. Glanz Wax is a synthetic wax so it's more like a sealant. It is almost like water when applying. If you want a bit of a warmer look then go with the NB. I've switched to the NR and find it a lot easier to apply.

 

[tCspool]

Agreed, if you have moderate go with PP first and then the MP. Both are easy to use and will leave the finish LSP ready. Glanz Wax is a synthetic wax so it's more like a sealant. It is almost like water when applying. If you want a bit of a warmer look then go with the NB. I've switched to the NR and find it a lot easier to apply.

Ok - so you weren't suggesting to use both the Glanz and Nattys, correct?



If I go with the Nattys over the 1Z products, should I use the Duragloss AW over Nattys for additional protection of the wax - or is that a waste of time and product?



and...



if I choose to use Glanz over the other 1Z products (pp and metallic) - how is the durability of Glanz as a final coat and should I put anything over that to protect it - or again is that a waste of time/product?



Finally - which product (Glanz or Nattys) will help my flake stand out more?

 

[uzj100]

Glanz is thicker now--they've changed the formula a bit to make it less watery. I think it might make your flake pop a bit more than NB. See what others say though

 

[sken]

If I may interject here, a little technical advice. If you are going to use a "glazing" material for a reduction of the swirls, you do not need to apply a wax if you are going to apply a sealer. This may sound like it goes against traditional wisdom so I will briefly explain why its not such a good idea. By the way I come from the research and development side of the equation so I have studied this quite extensively.



Good glazes, by definition, are designed to fill and hide wisp scratches and swirls with materials that closely replicate the wax products and effectively flatten the surface. As you all have noticed, a fine glazing material, properly applied, can create an amazing finish. Applying a carnauba product on top of that can further enhance a particular look. Now the looming problem. Carnauba and most synthetic waxes have a much lower melting point and a much slower recovery rate after heat exposure than most of the available sealer products. Although the surface amount is very thin (appropriately measured in microns), you have two different melting and recovery rates working at the same time while in contact with each other. Not good. And, the materials will inevitably mix adding insult to injury and resulting in the loss of crisp depth and durability.



Once you have achieved a highly polished finish (wax does not create shine depth, polish and prep does. Wax creates the desired look), It is best to do one or the other, wax it or seal it. Waxes for the glow and sealers for crispness. Carnauba DOES cause light refraction thus giving the desired glow. Most cross linked (ionic) or covalent bonded polymer sealants create much less refraction thus giving the crispness and have higher melting points thus the inherent durability.



Just a thought.....let the games begin.

 

[tCspool]

If I may interject here, a little technical advice. If you are going to use a "glazing" material for a reduction of the swirls, you do not need to apply a wax if you are going to apply a sealer. This may sound like it goes against traditional wisdom so I will briefly explain why its not such a good idea. By the way I come from the research and development side of the equation so I have studied this quite extensively.



Good glazes, by definition, are designed to fill and hide wisp scratches and swirls with materials that closely replicate the wax products and effectively flatten the surface. As you all have noticed, a fine glazing material, properly applied, can create an amazing finish. Applying a carnauba product on top of that can further enhance a particular look. Now the looming problem. Carnauba and most synthetic waxes have a much lower melting point and a much slower recovery rate after heat exposure than most of the available sealer products. Although the surface amount is very thin (appropriately measured in microns), you have two different melting and recovery rates working at the same time while in contact with each other. Not good. And, the materials will inevitably mix adding insult to injury and resulting in the loss of crisp depth and durability.



Once you have achieved a highly polished finish (wax does not create shine depth, polish and prep does. Wax creates the desired look), It is best to do one or the other, wax it or seal it. Waxes for the glow and sealers for crispness. Carnauba DOES cause light refraction thus giving the desired glow. Most cross linked (ionic) or covalent bonded polymer sealants create much less refraction thus giving the crispness and have higher melting points thus the inherent durability.



Just a thought.....let the games begin.

Your logic seems sound, but I'm still a newbie so I'll wait for the experts to chime in.



So according to your advice, if I use the 1Z paint polish and metallic polish, there is no reason to use the 1Z Glanz? Should there be no protection on the polish?

 

[sken]

Your logic seems sound, but I'm still a newbie so I'll wait for the experts to chime in.



So according to your advice, if I use the 1Z paint polish and metallic polish, there is no reason to use the 1Z Glanz? Should there be no protection on the polish?

The Metallic and Glanz are very similar materials. They are a combination of carnuaba and synthetic waxes with cross link polymers so you are creating redundancy that will not further your efforts to create a better shine. Depending on your region and climate there might be some tricks to the application that someone from your area might have for you. But true layering of product can only really be achieved from polymers and resins. I can't believe I am giving advice on a competitors products but help is help. If the Zaino line is your choice than I would keep to what they have created to create their optimum level of finish quality like using the Z6 as a maintenance product. There are some interactivity issues I have seen people discussing and a lot has to do with crossing suspension materials.



Regarding protection, you will have "protection" in both cases. The Glanz probably has an elevated level of the polymers so this will add to length of durability. So, you could use either one or the other but they will have different looks. Glanz uses synthetic wax and will give you more clarity and durability. Metallic is carnauba based and will give you more glow.



Please don't take what I say as being a know it all. I manufacture these types of materials so I have a little knowledge of the true nature of them. I will not parrot marketing hype. From me you will just get the facts.



Scott

 

[Accumulator]

Used by itself, MP/PP don't last long at all. I want even greater protection on my garage queens.



I've never had a problem using carnaubas over anything (I've used them over products like Autoglym SRP for decades), and the only heat-related issue I've had with carnaubas is that Souveran on the oh-so-hot hood of the Jag doesn't last all that long. Note that ScottWax uses Souveran on black vehicles in Texas without problems. Once carnaubas set up, they usually withstand heat quite well.



And many "waxes" are synthetic at least to some extent (e.g., Glanz, 845 IW). According to Mike at 1Z Metallic w/Wax (the pink stuff previously known as "consumer line" MP) contains both natural and synthetic waxes. The Pro-Line version of MP contains only synthetic. The sealants I've tried bonded fine to the Pro-line version IME, but not to the other, pink version. Carnaubas work fine over both of them and also over PP.



Oh, and we've discussed the layering of carnaubas so many times that I won't go there now, but if first-hand observation of controlled testing didn't show a benefit (when it's done properly), none of us would bother doing it.



As for muting of metalflake, 845 does it on some paints but not on others.



sken- Welcome to Autopia! Hope the above didn't sound too :argue with what you posted previously.

 

[sken]

sken- Welcome to Autopia! Hope the above didn't sound too :argue with what you posted previously.

Hell no!! I love spirited debate as long as its productive. Facts are facts and logical debate is the only way to get to the answer.



I guess the way I should have put it was that it has been tested with great results that the paint sealers are best applied BEFORE the wax products be it synthetic or plant based. The reason is that the melting points of the wax are lower and can actually (as crazy as this sounds) protect the sealants from degrading. Restoring the finish becomes a breeze if this method is used. But, not if the sealer is one of these new wipe on and walk away types because the silicone contents are VERY high. They can give you any explanation they want but it is silicone that allows this type of process.



Scott

 

[Accumulator]

Hell no!! I love spirited debate as long as its productive. Facts are facts and logical debate is the only way to get to the answer.



I guess the way I should have put it was that it has been tested with great results that the paint sealers are best applied BEFORE the wax products be it synthetic or plant based. ..

Glad I didn't give offense. Yeah, sealants before carnaubas is the way to go.

 

[Dailyshine]

Hey tCspool-



If you get Glanz, a suggestion that was given to me was to transfer some of it in a spray bottle, and use it like a spray wax. I have both old and new formulas, but haven't tried the new one yet. I was under the impression that the consistency was the same, but I guess they changed that too like landcrusier said.



The old formula was on the watery side. But you might be able to add some to a applicator now with the new formula.

 

[tCspool]

Ok excellent dialog but I'm a bit more confused. Core product to take out swirls and low-medium surface scratches = 1Z Paint Polish...agree that this is a good choice?



From what I understand, using 1Z Metallic polish over 1Z Paint polish is very wasteful - so it looks like I should skip it.



Next (confusion) is the wax - Glanz or Nattys - Nattys seemed like a good choice - but it appears that putting this over Glanz is not a good choice. Correct me if I am wrong. Should I be choosing one over the other? I want durability and flake magnification.





I know there are so many choices and personal preferences, so as always I appreciate the feedback.

 

[tCspool]

Hey tCspool-



If you get Glanz, a suggestion that was given to me was to transfer some of it in a spray bottle, and use it like a spray wax. I have both old and new formulas, but haven't tried the new one yet. I was under the impression that the consistency was the same, but I guess they changed that too like landcrusier said.



The old formula was on the watery side. But you might be able to add some to a applicator now with the new formula.

I'll try this if I end up going that route - good tip!

 

[Accumulator]

Ok excellent dialog but I'm a bit more confused. Core product to take out swirls and low-medium surface scratches = 1Z Paint Polish...agree that this is a good choice?



From what I understand, using 1Z Metallic polish over 1Z Paint polish is very wasteful - so it looks like I should skip it..

The MP is so mild that most clearly visible marring will require the PP unless the paint is very, *VERY* soft.



Some paints show an improvement when polished with the finer abrasives in MP (after first using the PP). Others don't. You just won't know until you try, but the improvement will usually be very subtle to most people anyhow. I can say for certain that when it does make a difference, it's something that *I* notice and I wouldn't skip the MP in those cases. But that's just me.



Oh, and generally speaking, IMO if you want the flake to show I wouldn't use multiple LSPs. I'd pick something and just use that one product.

 

[cshorey]

Question: If you picked a LSP for looks that may not have the durability (for tCspool's case, Natty's Blue over Collinite). Can you/he gain durability by building up multiple coats (With proper cure times, its cure right?)? Something like 4 layers?



I was planning on applying 3 layers of Collinite for my full detail.



chris

 

[Dailyshine]

Next (confusion) is the wax - Glanz or Nattys - Nattys seemed like a good choice - but it appears that putting this over Glanz is not a good choice. Correct me if I am wrong. Should I be choosing one over the other? I want durability and flake magnification.



I know there are so many choices and personal preferences, so as always I appreciate the feedback.

Yeah, really, the most that anyone can tell you is their opinion based on their experiences. Would it be a bad choice to top Glanz with Natty's? I don't think so. But in true autopian style, the best way to see would be to buy both and try it. If the combination of the two doesn't look good to you, you'll still have two quality waxes that look good on their own.



Also, the new formula for Glanz has carnauba in it now, so like suggested by Accumulator, you might want to try just using that alone and see if that works for you.



Part of the fun is trying different products, different combinations...



Only thing is, it does hurt your bank account. :help:

 

[tCspool]

Oh, and generally speaking, IMO if you want the flake to show I wouldn't use multiple LSPs. I'd pick something and just use that one product.

OK - so using 1Z PP and then the Glanz as final coat wouldn't both count as LSP - right?