Plz help me get current - need new product, advice

[Surly]

Hi all, it's been a while since I was following detailing forums, and I'm not sure if the ones I followed were ever as knowledgeable and sophisticated as here. I've been linking over to here for a while, but this is my first real post. I still have the same car, and what I'm doing seems to work fairly well. I am, however, running out of my old products and a few of my pads are a little long in the tooth. I'm looking at placing an order and need some advice. I get a little wordy as I try to provide answers to anticipated questions up front - sorry.



Right now my only car is a 1998 BMW 528i sport in Barritz Blue (a dark metallic colour) with 85%+ original paint (bottom half of front doors were painted when I fixed some seam issues). I bought it from the original owner in 2001.



Since 2001 it's been a "daily" driver in a Toronto suburb, but it's not used for commuting and lives in the garage when not being used. It's indoor lifestyle means that I only do a major detailing by machine once per year in the spring (any time now), touch it up with a quick coat of wax every 4-8 weeks and a double-coat before winter. If I'm lucky, winter will afford me nice days for one or two quick single coats (but not always - like this year).



My abrasives are currently the older, VOC formula of Einszett 1Z green and red which I purchased around 2005. These products have been easy to work with and have given good results. I read everywhere that the new "environmentally friendly", VOC-free versions of these products were pretty bad in comparison. I apply with a PC 7424 using 6" Lake Country pads. I usually use white but I have yellow and grey on hand.



My once-per-year routine:

• wash (P21S, Mothers Gold, etc...)
  
• Clay, if needed, based on feel (often it isn't)
  
• 1Z green, if needed, on white or yellow (maybe only in bad areas like around trunk handle)
  
• 1Z red on white
  
• P21S GEPC on white
  
• P21S/S100 Concours wax x2
  

This gives a "flawless" shine (the paint has flaws after 13 years of daily driving, but there are no swirls, holograms, scratches, spider webbing or anything else), it looks very glossy and reflective, feels buttery smooth (sometimes for the whole 12 months), is easy to clean subsequently, and lasts quite a long time. I stopped reading detailing boards partially because I was finally happy with what I was doing instead of always looking for something else to try. How much is actually 'flawless' and how much is filled by glazes I'm not certain. I've seen it look pretty bad (to me) if I add a couple of rounds of Dawn to the beginning of the annual process. I should also point out that I now have two small kids and "stuff happens" from time to time.



For no particular reason I'm thinking of trying Menzerna products, but I'm open to ideas for other quality materials. I don't need over-the-counter products but it would be nice to order from a Canadian online retailer because shipping and brokerage can get very expensive from the US.



I would like to replace the steps from 1Z green through GEPC with new supplies that perform as well or better. I like P21S wax well enough although if I get a new car I might Zaino it - not sure. My paint is "cared for", but it's hard for me to tell how much of the swirls I can see coming out of winter are "new" (from rushed, opportunistic hand washes starting with a very dirty car) and how many are remaining surface defects that were hidden by glazes which are starting to wash away when I can't apply wax regularly and I'm using touchless car washes.



Obviously my finish is OEM and "aged" (I'm thinking of the autogeek chart) but it isn't oxidized or neglected. OTOH, these late 90s early 2000s German paints seem to be softer than the eras before (when VOCs were allowed) and since (presumably due to developments like Ceramiclear). I don't want to choose the wrong products.



Help me! P085RD? 106FA? On which pads? Something non-Menzerna altogether? Do I need greens and orange too? I was always a paste > liquid wax kind of guy but if I lived in a perfect world P21S/S100 would make a liquid version of their wax that I could apply at low speed with my grey pad. I've found that I can often see uneven application of the wax even though I do 2 coats and I think low speed machine application would smooth that all out. I know there's a fancy name for that but I don't remember what it is right now. I have a nearly new tub of S100 which is good for years of use - I'd rather not set it aside.



Thanks!:canada:

 

[Accumulator]

Hi all, it's been a while since I was following detailing forums, and I'm not sure if the ones I followed were ever as knowledgeable and sophisticated as here. I've been linking over to here for a while, but this is my first real post. I still have the same car, and what I'm doing seems to work fairly well. I am, however, running out of my old products and a few of my pads are a little long in the tooth. I'm looking at placing an order and need some advice. I get a little wordy as I try to provide answers to anticipated questions up front - sorry.

Welcome to Autopia!



I'm mighty long-winded myself

Right now my only car is a 1998 BMW 528i sport in Barritz Blue (a dark metallic colour) with 85%+ original paint (bottom half of front doors were painted when I fixed some seam issues). I bought it from the original owner in 2001. ...Obviously my finish is OEM and "aged" (I'm thinking of the autogeek chart) but it isn't oxidized or neglected. OTOH, these late 90s early 2000s German paints seem to be softer than the eras before (when VOCs were allowed) and since (presumably due to developments like Ceramiclear). I don't want to choose the wrong products.

IME the late-90s BMWs are usually kinda hard. My '97 M3 was harder than my Audis!

My abrasives are currently the older, VOC formula of Einszett 1Z green and red which I purchased around 2005. These products have been easy to work with and have given good results. I read everywhere that the new "environmentally friendly", VOC-free versions of these products were pretty bad in comparison...

OK, I'm with you here; I used/recommended the 1Z twins for a long time before going on to other stuff and still use them on one of my vehicles. That vehicle is a color similar to yours and it's in, uhm.....highly imperfect condition. I bet you could do worse than just buying the post-VOC versions of the same 1Z stuff, but I'd replace the 1Z green with the Optimum compound I recommend below.

I apply with a PC 7424 using 6" Lake Country pads. I usually use white but I have yellow and grey on hand...

I *strongly* encourage you to either use smaller pads (on the PC), or get a Griot's Garage 6" random orbital, or both. Gee, it's easy for me to spend your money, huh?

My once-per-year routine:

• wash (P21S, Mothers Gold, etc...)
  
• Clay, if needed, based on feel (often it isn't)
  
• 1Z green, if needed, on white or yellow (maybe only in bad areas like around trunk handle)
  
• 1Z red on white
  
• P21S GEPC on white
  
• P21S/S100 Concours wax x2
  

OK, gotcha.



Does the GEPC make any real diff after using the 1Z red?

This gives a "flawless" shine (the paint has flaws after 13 years of daily driving, but there are no swirls, holograms, scratches, spider webbing or anything else), it looks very glossy and reflective, feels buttery smooth (sometimes for the whole 12 months), is easy to clean subsequently, and lasts quite a long time. I stopped reading detailing boards partially because I was finally happy with what I was doing instead of always looking for something else to try. How much is actually 'flawless' and how much is filled by glazes I'm not certain.

I wouldn't worry about whether it's "truly corrected" or "filled", as long as you're happy then all is well.

I've seen it look pretty bad (to me) if I add a couple of rounds of Dawn to the beginning of the annual process. I should also point out that I now have two small kids and "stuff happens" from time to time.

OK, gotta be realistic about this stuff.

For no particular reason I'm thinking of trying Menzerna products, but I'm open to ideas for other quality materials...I would like to replace the steps from 1Z green through GEPC with new supplies that perform as well or better...

I'd lean towards Optimum Hyper (spray) Compound, followed by Menzerna PO85RD. The Optimum is more like a "super swirlmark remover" and isn't so much more aggressive than the 1Z green that you'd need to worry about using it. The Menzerna oughta be a good subsitute for perhaps *both* of the 1Z products, at least if you use it with smaller (hence more aggressive) pads.



BUT...this is a "pure" approach without the filling/etc. that the 1Z does. So you might want to follow the Menzerna with something that does a bit of filling. The P21s GEPC might do it, but it might also diminish the gloss that the PO85 leaves behind :think:



Or just get more 1Z red and do exactly what you're doing except switch the 1Z green for Optimum Hyper Compound. Yeah, everybody is all enthusiastic about Menzerna (myself included), but no real need to fix what isn't broken. I'd rather see you change the wax to Collinite.

I like P21S wax well enough although if I get a new car I might Zaino it - not sure.

If you want to go the sealant route, I'd go with FK1000P instead. A few coats of that will astound you, in part because of how well/easily it cleans up. But sealants generally don't go well on top of stuff with fillers.



Since you have the new tub of P21s that you want to use, I'd could say to just stick with that. Then I wouldn't mention "Collinite" again (a *VERY* durable wax line, their liquid 845 just might make you forget all about the P21s ).



So...I'd go with smaller pads, preferably on a better polisher. Optimum Hyper (spray) Compound. Maybe some Menzerna finishing polish or just more 1Z red. Then see how it looks after your P21s GECP/wax.

My paint is "cared for", but it's hard for me to tell how much of the swirls I can see coming out of winter are "new" (from rushed, opportunistic hand washes starting with a very dirty car) and how many are remaining surface defects that were hidden by glazes which are starting to wash away when I can't apply wax regularly and I'm using touchless car washes.

Given that real-world treatment, man-oh-man would I rather have something like Collinite on there as opposed to the P21s wax. The 845 even works great on black plastic trim.

 

[Surly]

Thanks for your reply! I have a couple of follow up questions/comments that I'll try to get inline here in some useful manner....

IME the late-90s BMWs are usually kinda hard. My '97 M3 was harder than my Audis!

I remember when I joined forums right after getting the car everyone was complaining about how easily they stone chipped and scratched, rambling on and on about how the environmental movement ruined the durability of the finish etc...etc... All the other owner's thought that you could scratch the car just looking at it. I guess those discussions stuck with me

OK, I'm with you here; I used/recommended the 1Z twins for a long time before going on to other stuff and still use them on one of my vehicles. That vehicle is a color similar to yours and it's in, uhm.....highly imperfect condition. I bet you could do worse than just buying the post-VOC versions of the same 1Z stuff, but I'd replace the 1Z green with the Optimum compound I recommend below.

Right - I *could* just keep using the new versions, but there's better stuff out there by now so I'd like to update my selection a bit (preferably without trying a couple of dozen new products). I'm not in a place right now to fund "detailing experimentation" as part of the hobby :frown:

I *strongly* encourage you to either use smaller pads (on the PC), or get a Griot's Garage 6" random orbital, or both. Gee, it's easy for me to spend your money, huh?

Technically I believe my ROB is a 7336SP, but I need to check. I have counter balance kits for a couple of sizes of pad but this 6" route was the overall best-practice recommendation at the time I put the kit together. What will smaller pads do for me other than take longer? I've seen some indication that smaller pads are considered "more aggressive" - is it easier for the ROB to keep both spin axes in motion with smaller pads or something? I'll have to look for some links with explanations. If you can provide any that's great.

OK, gotcha.



Does the GEPC make any real diff after using the 1Z red?





I wouldn't worry about whether it's "truly corrected" or "filled", as long as you're happy then all is well.

There might be marginally higher gloss, buttery feel and "perfection" but the red did a pretty darn good job of prep. If I recall correctly, I believe the GEPC added more depth. The 1Z red finished with a very shiny and glossy surface but it looked shallow. I'm willing to skip the extra step with some updated products for sure. I also look forward to not having to search for and purchase the GEPC at inflated prices just to have it go weird in the bottle after 18 months.

I'd lean towards Optimum Hyper (spray) Compound, followed by Menzerna PO85RD. The Optimum is more like a "super swirlmark remover" and isn't so much more aggressive than the 1Z green that you'd need to worry about using it. The Menzerna oughta be a good subsitute for perhaps *both* of the 1Z products, at least if you use it with smaller (hence more aggressive) pads.



BUT...this is a "pure" approach without the filling/etc. that the 1Z does. So you might want to follow the Menzerna with something that does a bit of filling. The P21s GEPC might do it, but it might also diminish the gloss that the PO85 leaves behind :think:



Or just get more 1Z red and do exactly what you're doing except switch the 1Z green for Optimum Hyper Compound. Yeah, everybody is all enthusiastic about Menzerna (myself included), but no real need to fix what isn't broken. I'd rather see you change the wax to Collinite.

I really don't think I'm picking up much in the way of new swirls that are actually in the clearcoat as opposed to a little bit of microscratching which may only be in the top coat of wax/glaze. I'm pretty critical when viewing the car and I can catch a little "schwink" of lines in the sun from my waffle MF drying towel leaving minerals behind (the schwink looks like marring but wipes off with your finger) and it annoys me. It's still nothing compared to the "scha-WANG" of ugly swirls and spider webbing visible on the neighbour's car at 15' because he washes with a brush *cringe*.



If I had some indoor evaluation lighting instead of depending on direct sunlight at the right angle, I may better be able to make the decision on how aggressive to go to fix the problems. I do not insist on leveling every defect - I don't really know how deep they are and the glazes in my various steps pretty much completely hide them. I would be interested in giving it a go, I think. I will be nervous working with completely new products for the first time, tough.



What else might I follow P085 with other than GEPC that would provide a little fill if it's required? Is there any way that P085 could leave it's own marring behind or is it too fine? Are you suggesting that I use Optimum Hyper once to "fix", and then P085 "every time" for routine defect cleanup prior to wax/sealing? Which pad colour do you recommend for each step?



On Collinite - back when I was last actively researching new products the Collinite I saw was given acknowledgement for being the longest lasting wax out there but it didn't look very good. Various people gave the opinion that they'd put it on their "beaters" that they only want to wax once a year because it would provide protection and they don't care how the car looks. Except for the challenge of winter, I'm happy with the durability of P21S with the environment my car currently sees. I used to put other longer-lasting products on for winter (I have some Meguiar's and Mother's products that don't look as nice but last longer) but I stopped bothering a couple of years ago. I'm still open to trying a product specific for pre-winter application.



Am I thinking of the wrong Collinite product#, or has it been improved?

If you want to go the sealant route, I'd go with FK1000P instead. A few coats of that will astound you, in part because of how well/easily it cleans up. But sealants generally don't go well on top of stuff with fillers.



Since you have the new tub of P21s that you want to use, I'd could say to just stick with that. Then I wouldn't mention "Collinite" again (a *VERY* durable wax line, their liquid 845 just might make you forget all about the P21s ).

I've been reading about FK1000P here too. It seems very interesting. At this point I'm still OK with a wax route but as I mentioned if I get a new car I might be thinking about starting with a sealant instead.

So...I'd go with smaller pads, preferably on a better polisher. Optimum Hyper (spray) Compound. Maybe some Menzerna finishing polish or just more 1Z red. Then see how it looks after your P21s GECP/wax.



Given that real-world treatment, man-oh-man would I rather have something like Collinite on there as opposed to the P21s wax. The 845 even works great on black plastic trim.

Can you expand on "better polisher"? I know there's ALWAYS something better than what you have, no matter what you spend, but I was under the impression at the time that the 7424/7336SP was a pretty good polisher in the non-rotary, ROB universe. I do notice that you need a light touch to get proper spin in addition to orbiting and I could imagine that a DA driven in both spin and orbit (if that exists) might be better, but it would not longer be "random".



What about my pads? Considering that it seems like yellow is considered a heavy cutting pad, would that not make up for some lack of polisher strength? Or is that not a good idea with finer compounds anyways? I kind of planned to get some orange but that wasn't set in stone. What do you think I should apply the P085RD with?



Thanks again!

 

[Accumulator]

Right - I *could* just keep using the new versions, but there's better stuff out there by now so I'd like to update my selection a bit (preferably without trying a couple of dozen new products). I'm not in a place right now to fund "detailing experimentation" as part of the hobby :frown:

The 1Z red is SO user-friendly that if you're happy with it I'd lean towards just sticking with that.

Technically I believe my ROB is a 7336SP, but I need to check. I have counter balance kits for a couple of sizes of pad but this 6" route was the overall best-practice recommendation at the time I put the kit together. What will smaller pads do for me other than take longer? I've seen some indication that smaller pads are considered "more aggressive" - is it easier for the ROB to keep both spin axes in motion with smaller pads or something? I'll have to look for some links with explanations. If you can provide any that's great.

I have one of that model PC (and they're all basically the exact same unit anyhow).



No links handy, but in a nutshell the 6"/etc. pads cause so much friction that I find it basically impossible to get anything done in a reasonable amount of time. Even though the smaller pads cover less area, what area they do cover gets corrected efficiently. The larger pads are OK for final polishing, but for real correction via PC I'd want 4" ones.

There might be marginally higher gloss, buttery feel and "perfection" but the red did a pretty darn good job of prep. If I recall correctly, I believe the GEPC added more depth. The 1Z red finished with a very shiny and glossy surface but it looked shallow. I'm willing to skip the extra step with some updated products for sure. I also look forward to not having to search for and purchase the GEPC at inflated prices just to have it go weird in the bottle after 18 months.

I myself would settle for the 1Z red and just let the wax choice tweak the look.

I really don't think I'm picking up much in the way of new swirls that are actually in the clearcoat as opposed to a little bit of microscratching which may only be in the top coat of wax/glaze. I'm pretty critical when viewing the car and I can catch a little "schwink" of lines in the sun from my waffle MF drying towel leaving minerals behind (the schwink looks like marring but wipes off with your finger) and it annoys me. It's still nothing compared to the "scha-WANG" of ugly swirls and spider webbing visible on the neighbour's car at 15' because he washes with a brush *cringe*.



If I had some indoor evaluation lighting instead of depending on direct sunlight at the right angle, I may better be able to make the decision on how aggressive to go to fix the problems. I do not insist on leveling every defect - I don't really know how deep they are and the glazes in my various steps pretty much completely hide them. I would be interested in giving it a go, I think. I will be nervous working with completely new products for the first time, tough.

No need to go looking for problems you're not currently bothered by.

What else might I follow P085 with other than GEPC that would provide a little fill if it's required? Is there any way that P085 could leave it's own marring behind or is it too fine? Are you suggesting that I use Optimum Hyper once to "fix", and then P085 "every time" for routine defect cleanup prior to wax/sealing? Which pad colour do you recommend for each step?

There are new glazes that might be good, but I can't really say as I don't do that. If marring bothers me, I correct it. If it doesn't bother me I live with it and I think you might oughta try living with some minor flaws rather than drive yourself nuts with this stuff.



Maybe somebody else will have some ideas. I do find that Autoglym Super Resin Polish (an all in one) does some concealing, but I dunno if it's better at that than the 1Z red.



Yeah, correct it aggressively once and then just do follow ups or simply live with it. I really do think you oughta just stick with the 1Z red and do that as needed.



I wouldn't bother using PO85RD unless you're really shooting for at least near-perfection; I'd rather use something like the 1Z that doesn't give the same level of gloss but conceals the flaws better.

On Collinite - back when I was last actively researching new products the Collinite I saw was given acknowledgement for being the longest lasting wax out there but it didn't look very good. Various people gave the opinion that they'd put it on their "beaters" that they only want to wax once a year because it would provide protection and they don't care how the car looks. Except for the challenge of winter, I'm happy with the durability of P21S with the environment my car currently sees. I used to put other longer-lasting products on for winter (I have some Meguiar's and Mother's products that don't look as nice but last longer) but I stopped bothering a couple of years ago. I'm still open to trying a product specific for pre-winter application.

Eh, guess it's totally subjective, but I have P21s and don't use it. I do use various Collinite waxes. IMO if something doesn't look good it WILL *NOT* be because you used Collinite instead of P21s.



Collinite cleans up better IME and that will help keep the marring down.

Am I thinking of the wrong Collinite product#, or has it been improved?

I like both the 476S paste and the 845 liquid. I'd absolutely take the 845 over P21s, but that's just me.



I did a pal's showcar with 476S (the "not good looking one") and people at the show thought it had some special wax (i.e., Dodo Juice) on it because it looked so swell. That was a medium-dark metallic blue, BTW

Can you expand on "better polisher"? I know there's ALWAYS something better than what you have, no matter what you spend, but I was under the impression at the time that the 7424/7336SP was a pretty good polisher in the non-rotary, ROB universe. I do notice that you need a light touch to get proper spin in addition to orbiting and I could imagine that a DA driven in both spin and orbit (if that exists) might be better, but it would not longer be "random".

I hardly *ever* touch my PCs any more. The Griot's unit is simply superior in every respect. The "Forced rotation" units like the Flex 3401 are very good and my Flex has basically replaced my rotaries. While the motion isn't random in the same sense a a free-wheeling pad, I've had *ZERO* issues related to that.

What about my pads? Considering that it seems like yellow is considered a heavy cutting pad, would that not make up for some lack of polisher strength? Or is that not a good idea with finer compounds anyways? I kind of planned to get some orange but that wasn't set in stone. What do you think I should apply the P085RD with?

I use orange pads instead of yellow or, if I need more oomph, the burgundy Meguiar's cutting pads. I just don't like the yellow ones much, the cut-micromarring/finish trade-off isn't right for me.



I tend to like mild pads and aggressive products, not the other way around.



For something like PO85RD you'd want a finishing pad as things oughta be basically fine before you use such a fine polish anyhow.

 

[5pointadam]

Hey Accumulator, not to butt in on the original point of this post but I was wondering what the full range of your use of the hypercompound has been. We love our optimum stuff don't get me wrong but I've actually had difficulties moving into the hypercompound as a daily use chem. Though we've found it great with our DA's, I've found it to be not as effective as our "old school" compound with the high speed. Also very costly for removal of real problems like oxidation, spiderwebs etc... A detailer that we work closely with uses the Flex almost exclusively and won't stop raving about the hypercompound. He's very convincing, but for some reason I can't seem to make the switch. Any advice? I guess to keep in line with the original post, (I'll probably get killed for this) we use Pro compounds Ultimate Cutter, and Clear Cut. They are WAY dustier and have less work time with the DA, but boy do they clear the paint with the 6 speed. I've been using those compounds since 2001 and can't seem to break away. Again, I don't mean for this to be an indictment on optimum because of how much I love their stuff, more of a dialogue to help me out.

 

[Surly]

Thanks again - not a lot of time at the exact moment for addressing a lot of specific points but I'll say a couple of things:



- I just looked into Optimum Hyper Compound spray.... omg, a SPRAY compound? wow.



- I'm looking at the autogeek chart and menzerna's own description of P085RD vs. P085U and some other polishes. Are you suggesting P085RD strictly for shine purposes prior to wax/sealant with Optimum doing ALL of the real work? Does it have any real correction ability? The notes go on about factory use on brand new finishes and the like, not daily drivers. Would P085U be a better choice, or do you feel the Optimum will cover that entire range of cut?



- "Finishing pad" (recommended for P085RD) is grey in the Lake Country product line, correct?



- I may look into the Flex 3401 and similar. I have always been interested in a true dual drive/forced rotation DA. I also feel that I could handle rotary, but I simply don't need that kind of power on my own paint which I take good care of and the chance of screwups goes up enormously.



- I follow what you're saying on 4" pads. I'll look into whether I have or can obtain 4" counter-balance kits and consider orange and white in this size.



- Although I don't have the time or budget I once had, I am genuinely interested in polishing, not just driving a shiny car. I'm willing to advance my skills here and not just stick with 1Z red but I need guidance (which you and others are providing - thanks! :xyxthumbs)



- As stated above, I'm all for taking a shot a true correction. I'm not sure what I'll find is quite "deep" versus "routine swirls". I can tell you that 1Z red and GEPC cover it ALL up, and P21S wax every 8 weeks keeps the "fill" intact indefinitely. I don't have swirls coming back after 3 weeks. If I didn't drive all winter I'd probably never see a swirl again. I would be tempted to go less-aggressive at correction if I had a glaze that could bat clean up (and not reduce shine, if possible) in case my swirl remover action was not quite aggressive enough.



Cheers,

 

[Surly]

I've looked at my supplies again, and have a couple of updates...



- My ROB is the 7336SP and it doesn't look like I have any other counterweights other than 6". I could have sworn I had 6" and one other - I guess not. Can I get a 4" counterweight for this machine?



- It turns out that I have far more 1Z Green than I thought (long story - I had to transfer it from it's original can to multiple plastic bottles when it arrived because it was dented and I found a full plastic bottle of it). I also have most of a bottle of GEPC and, of course, 2/3 of a can of S100 wax. Financially I should just keep doing what I'm doing - probably for a couple more years - but now I'm intrigued by what I could do to actually fully correct the surface.



- I confirmed that my pads are 6" and they are Lake Country VC (variable contact) pads. I've always felt that I may not have the quite the right thing - I seem to be fighting the concave shape of the pad more than it's helping me - with a ROB anyways. I have 4x white pads, all but one newish. 2x yellow (one never opened) and 1x grey that I was fooling around with to apply wax once (essentially new). These were the pads I could get from the only online detailing store that carried Lake Country back when I ordered this stuff. They effectively paired up PC ROBs and these 6" Lake Country VC pads as "the solution" and my forums agreed at the time.



- If I get any new pads, this CCS system is the way to go?

 

[Accumulator]

Hey Accumulator, not to butt in on the original point of this post but I was wondering what the full range of your use of the hypercompound has been...

My experienced with the OHC has been downright *minimal* compared to you pros! I hardly ever do correction these days. But I did my last two with it and was literally astounded by how user-friendly the stuff was for me (compared primarily with M105).

But note that there are all sorts of personal preference/individual difference issues at play here too :think:

We love our optimum stuff don't get me wrong but I've actually had difficulties moving into the hypercompound as a daily use chem. Though we've found it great with our DA's, I've found it to be not as effective as our "old school" compound with the high speed.

Ah, "Bingo!" I was using it via Flex 3401, Griot's 6" RO, and my other such machines. If I were using it via rotary things might've turned out *VERY* different. I too generally lean towards "old school" compounds via rotary, usually 3M's old PI-III stuff (if I don't need Extra Cut 05936 I don't need the rotary...that's just how I play it).

Also very costly for removal of real problems like oxidation, spiderwebs etc...

Yeah, the OHC is so gentle for a compound that between how may passes, how much product, and it's cost...well, I can see your point! If I need serious power, I too would want something more potent.

A detailer that we work closely with uses the Flex almost exclusively and won't stop raving about the hypercompound. He's very convincing, but for some reason I can't seem to make the switch. Any advice?

He's probably seeing it the same way I am, but IMO what you're doing works fine for you, so don't try to fix what isn't broken

I guess to keep in line with the original post, (I'll probably get killed for this) we use Pro compounds Ultimate Cutter, and Clear Cut. They are WAY dustier and have less work time with the DA, but boy do they clear the paint with the 6 speed. I've been using those compounds since 2001 and can't seem to break away. Again, I don't mean for this to be an indictment on optimum because of how much I love their stuff, more of a dialogue to help me out.

You're not the only person here doing it that way, not everyone has given up their rotaries and old-school compounds/pads Ya know, generally I'm *not* a big Optimum user. The OHC is pretty much the only thing of theirs I use. I *really* didn't like Optimum Car Polish, I can't wash marring-free with ONR... :nixweiss their stuff just isn't usually the right approach for me. But the OHC *within its limitations via RO/DA* is one product of theirs that was such a pleasant surprise that I'm recommending it highly....recommending it, that is, to people who a) generally aren't pros and b) are looking for something better than they're currently using.

 

[5pointadam]

Damn man... I read a lot of your posts and I just figured you were a pro! That is why I asked. We love our DA's too but for cutting, there's nothing like the old school. And again, back to the original post, based on your assessment of your vehicle I think the hypercompound would be great. Also, I would not mess with ANY ultra cut with a DA. In my opinion it doesn't clear well.

 

[Accumulator]

Thanks again - not a lot of time at the exact moment for addressing a lot of specific points but I'll say a couple of things:



- I just looked into Optimum Hyper Compound spray.... omg, a SPRAY compound? wow.

Well, mine didn't spray very well, but it's still good stuff. Not as thick as many/most compounds even if it won't spray in a nice uniform mist the way it does in the demo videos.

- I'm looking at the autogeek chart and menzerna's own description of P085RD vs. P085U and some other polishes. Are you suggesting P085RD strictly for shine purposes prior to wax/sealant with Optimum doing ALL of the real work? Does it have any real correction ability? The notes go on about factory use on brand new finishes and the like, not daily drivers. Would P085U be a better choice, or do you feel the Optimum will cover that entire range of cut?

My experiences with PO85RD are so limited that you'd better see what guys like David Fermani say. But *I* would do all the correction via OHC and then just refine with the Menzerna. Note that the "factory use" involves specialized buffers.

- "Finishing pad" (recommended for P085RD) is grey in the Lake Country product line, correct?

Right, but you might want to use something a little more aggressive if you want to "force" the PO85RD to do more. Not sure if that's a good idea or not, I generally don't like to do that kind of thing.

- I may look into the Flex 3401 and similar. I have always been interested in a true dual drive/forced rotation DA. I also feel that I could handle rotary, but I simply don't need that kind of power on my own paint which I take good care of and the chance of screwups goes up enormously.

I sure like mine as a rotary subsitute, but I do wonder how the new Meguiar's MF pads might help ramp up the aggressiveness of "conventional" ROs.

- I follow what you're saying on 4" pads. I'll look into whether I have or can obtain 4" counter-balance kits and consider orange and white in this size.

When I was using my PCs with 4" pads I just used the 6" counterweight.

- Although I don't have the time or budget I once had, I am genuinely interested in polishing, not just driving a shiny car. I'm willing to advance my skills here and not just stick with 1Z red but I need guidance (which you and others are providing - thanks! :xyxthumbs)

OK, but I still think that the 1Z red might not be a bad approach in your case.

- As stated above, I'm all for taking a shot a true correction. I'm not sure what I'll find is quite "deep" versus "routine swirls". I can tell you that 1Z red and GEPC cover it ALL up, and P21S wax every 8 weeks keeps the "fill" intact indefinitely. I don't have swirls coming back after 3 weeks. If I didn't drive all winter I'd probably never see a swirl again. I would be tempted to go less-aggressive at correction if I had a glaze that could bat clean up (and not reduce shine, if possible) in case my swirl remover action was not quite aggressive enough.

I like how sensible your view sounds :xyxthumbs

 

[Accumulator]

I've looked at my supplies again, and have a couple of updates...



- My ROB is the 7336SP and it doesn't look like I have any other counterweights other than 6". I could have sworn I had 6" and one other - I guess not. Can I get a 4" counterweight for this machine?

Just use the one you have, worked fine for me. I just turned the speed down a bit with the 4" pads. It's not the most stable combo anyhow, but I don't think the weight factors in all that much.

- It turns out that I have far more 1Z Green than I thought (long story - I had to transfer it from it's original can to multiple plastic bottles when it arrived because it was dented and I found a full plastic bottle of it). I also have most of a bottle of GEPC and, of course, 2/3 of a can of S100 wax. Financially I should just keep doing what I'm doing - probably for a couple more years - but now I'm intrigued by what I could do to actually fully correct the surface.

If I were you I think I'd get the OHC and use it before your 1Z...do some single-panel corrections and see how things go. I just did that on my beater-Audi (dark pearl blue), using OHC for correction, 1Z green to finesse. That car has *such* compromised paint that I just stopped there and waxed, but since yours in undoubtedly nicer you could go on with 1Z red/GEPC.

- I confirmed that my pads are 6" and they are Lake Country VC (variable contact) pads. I've always felt that I may not have the quite the right thing - I seem to be fighting the concave shape of the pad more than it's helping me - with a ROB anyways. I have 4x white pads, all but one newish. 2x yellow (one never opened) and 1x grey that I was fooling around with to apply wax once (essentially new). These were the pads I could get from the only online detailing store that carried Lake Country back when I ordered this stuff. They effectively paired up PC ROBs and these 6" Lake Country VC pads as "the solution" and my forums agreed at the time.

Heh heh, you might end up with as many unused pads as I have if you're not careful! Yeah, they sold lots of "kits" with 6" pads but I never thought those were a good idea. Still, if you get a Flex 3401 or a Griot's 6" you might find some good uses for them.

The VC pads are nice for some things, especially with a rotary, but yeah...I too generally prefer flat pads.

- If I get any new pads, this CCS system is the way to go?

I'm not the right guy for pad advice as I'm still using up all my old ones. BUT...the Meguiar's burgundy cutting pad works well for me, ditto all the "flat orange pads" I have that are maybe LC (not sure). Then there're the new Meguiar's MF pads, which I think are worth a look.

 

[Accumulator]

Damn man... I read a lot of your posts and I just figured you were a pro! That is why I asked...

Heh heh, well...Fermani did make me an "honorary Pro" a while back when I wondered about my posting on the Pro forums :chuckle: IMO "Pro" = do it for a living; I'm merely an "expert" on a few topics

We love our DA's too but for cutting, there's nothing like the old school...

Agreed! Nothing like a rotary/wool/rocks-in-a-bottle for really getting things done :xyxthumbs It's just that people who ask for advice aren't the people I'd recommend that to, and people who already have that under their belt usually don't need (or want!) any advice from yours truly

And again, back to the original post, based on your assessment of your vehicle I think the hypercompound would be great...

While Ijust implied that guys like you don't need any $0.02 from me, I do think you might find the OHC has some uses, just not "replace all your old-school compounds" type of uses.

Also, I would not mess with ANY ultra cut with a DA. In my opinion it doesn't clear well.

Right. I won't even use it via Flex 3401 even though some people say it works OK. But on a rotary/wool pad/lots of speed it sure gets the job done. Fortunately for me, I hardly ever need to do that sort of job

 

[5pointadam]

Yeah, we do use OHC. Just not very often. That's why I was looking for some insight from another "pro." I am ALWAYS up for learning some new things. I don't align myself with one product line. If there is something out there that will help us be the best, I want to know about it!