Pad Help Please

Fishing

Fishing

Member
This pad is a griots pad. I have used this pad on three cars. It was on the third car that the edge of the backing began to peel away. The cars were done about 4 weeks apart from each other. First time I washed the pad I used Dove Dish Soap and warm water. After the second car I used Vinegar and Dove Dish Soap ( worked better for me then the soap and water ). I was on the third panel of the third car when I noticed this starting to happen. I use a compressor hose to clean off the pad after every panel. I am running at speed 5 on the DA. I did not catch any edges, panels or trim on the pads. I have two pads that this has happened to. Both of them Orange pads. I was using the Griots AIO. I am assuming that it is me and that the pads are good. Any idea of what I could be doing wrong ? Also I am very new to car detailing. Thank you for any help
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Fishing,
Sorry these pads delaminated on you..

If you are using only 1-2 pads for the entire paintwork of 1-2 cars, it is amazing they held up as long as they did..

Random Orbitals are harder on pads because they are constantly jerking them around and trying to rotate them at the same time, so the pads get more heat and beat up, than using a direct drive on lower speeds..

I think you will have better results if you get a foam pad cleaner to clean pads; the one I use for over 15 years has never damaged a zillion pads in that time..
Perhaps you used these pads so much they overheated too many times and that weakened the glue holding the backing enough that when you washed them it started pulling off.

Another thing to watch out for - how you pull the pad off the machine`s backing plate -- make sure you reach down far enough to grasp the back of the pad AND as much of the Backing on it, so you are not pulling the foam only and starting to weaken the glue bond around the pad and the backing...

If these 2 pads are fairly new, you might be able to talk to the Seller and see if they will help you this time..

But you have to know that to correct an entire vehicle takes a lot of pads to do a good job, and to keep the pads from breaking down quickly..
Good luck with this !
Dan F
 
What Stokdgs said.

Even with "just an AIO", I bet those pads did a whole lotta work.

And while I don`t use the Pad Cleaners (devices or products) that work so great for so many people (might start using them some day), the Dove Dish Soap and Vinegar sound like, uhm...funny...ways to clean an AIO out of a foam pad. You might try thinking of the AIO as "a mix of a polish with some oils and some kind of LSP". Neither the Dove nor the vinegar would be my choice for cleaning such a product out of anything; regular dish soap is pretty gentle on such stuff and I`d expect an acidic product to be going the wrong direction (I`d lean towards alkaline if not keeping it relatively neutral).

Easy for me to spend your money, but I bet that using a lot more pads and cleaning them with a real Pad Cleaner (do as I say, not as I do ;) ), and maybe turning down the speed (hey, I run `em fast too, but Mike lambert insists that a lower speed is better and he`s all about Griot`s stuff), will make a big difference.

EDIT: Oh, and if you`re doing a whole panel before cleaning the pads, well..uhm, maybe OK/maybe not. Even with an AIO that could be waiting too long. More frequently is generally better.
 
Stokdgs, Thnx for taking the time and all the great info/help. When you mentioned "foam pad cleaner to clean pads" are you talking about a mechanical thing like those brushes or a chemical cleaner ? I ordered more pads last night. :)

Accumulator, Thnx for the time and effort. I will take your advice and clean the pads much more often :) Looks like to time get a real pad cleaner.
 
Fishing said:
Stokdgs, Thnx for taking the time and all the great info/help. When you mentioned "foam pad cleaner to clean pads" are you talking about a mechanical thing like those brushes or a chemical cleaner ? I ordered more pads last night. :)

Accumulator, Thnx for the time and effort. I will take your advice and clean the pads much more often :) Looks like to time get a real pad cleaner.
Click to expand...

Hello, Fishing !
Glad we could be of help !
The Cleaner for Foam Pads that I have used for 15 years with great results is this --- https://www.autopia-carcare.com/snappy-clean-powder.html#.W8kfQXupH3g

Very easy to use; just put the contents into a 5-gal bucket, fill it over halfway, put the pads in there as you finish using them, later when cleaning up, put on some long rubber gloves, take each pad and squeeze it, rub the foam surfaces against each other under the water, squeeze a few more times, rinse them all out completely like in the sink, set them on edge somewhere to dry, and they will be really clean and ready to work when they dry..

I love this powder because it is very low foaming, so I don`t spend forever rinsing all the soap out... It comes out quickly and completely..
Has never seen any negative after effects, etc., on paintwork after washing innumerable pads with this product over all these years - ever -

I do not brush them with anything in this cleaning process, they always come out really clean by doing the above^^^
You can experiment as you wish, and come up with your own process and you will be fine..

This particular foam pad cleaner is made by the biggest foam pad producer in the US, Lake Country Manufacturing, out of Oconomowoc, WI, and it has always been my thought that if a pad manufacturer actually makes a cleaner for their pads, then they must have done much more R&D on the subject and tested it out way more than I would ever have the time to do..

You`re doing great, Fishing !
Dan F
 
Before becoming a Griot’s fan, I never had problems with Dawn dish soap. It’ll take oil off a bird and not hurt anything and it never damaged my pads. Now I spray them with Griot’s microfiber and pad cleaner and run them in the wash machine. Adding a little of the same to tide free and clear detergent. I still have pads almost 2 years old that function fine.
 
Stokdgs- When I read that "low foaming, no extended rinsing.." I think I might try such stuff after all if I ever use up my stash of Dawn Power Dissolver.

Mike lambert- Ah, something you and I are both doing :D

I never found Dawn all that effective on Polishing Oils (e.g., a Dawn wash after M205 did not strip the TSO), but it worked OK for cleaning my pads. MF Detergents do indeed work well, though I generally reserve them for my MF towels. The apparently discontinued Dawn Power Dissolver and my old Einman Fabrik Hi-Intensity ACP both work great, although the former sure does take a lot of rinsing to get it out of foam pads.

Given how long your pads are lasting despite the amount of work they get, between the lower operating speeds and the GG MF & Pad Cleaner you`re obviously on the right track.

Heh heh, with the limited amount of correction I do, I`m still using some pads from the `90s (not a typo). Fortunately, the products I used to use on them haven`t caused any issues now that I`m using new stuff, but of course ya gotta be careful about doing that lest it bite you.
 
Hey, hoping this isn`t *too* off-topic...speaking of older pads, Griot`s Orange ones in particular, is their current Orange Foam pad the same foam as the older version?

I`ve always loved those and still have some in service, they work great for everything except major correction (a bit gentle/tight for that even with aggressive stuff), even fine for LSPing on all but the softest paints. When GG started selling those instead of their (completely different) earlier pads it was a great step forward.

I gather they`re at least similar to the LC HydroTech Tangerine, but I`ve never used the latter so I don`t really know.
 
Fishing said:
This pad is a griots pad. I have used this pad on three cars. It was on the third car that the edge of the backing began to peel away. The cars were done about 4 weeks apart from each other. First time I washed the pad I used Dove Dish Soap and warm water. After the second car I used Vinegar and Dove Dish Soap ( worked better for me then the soap and water ). I was on the third panel of the third car when I noticed this starting to happen. I use a compressor hose to clean off the pad after every panel. I am running at speed 5 on the DA. I did not catch any edges, panels or trim on the pads. I have two pads that this has happened to. Both of them Orange pads. I was using the Griots AIO. I am assuming that it is me and that the pads are good. Any idea of what I could be doing wrong ? Also I am very new to car detailing. Thank you for any help .
Click to expand...

Lighten up the pressure on the machine and lower the machine speed to four, if you need something more aggressive step up to a more aggressive pad and/or polish. As another said, that is delamination and it is primarily caused by heat, not by compressed air cleaning or cleaning chemicals (unless left overnight in solution). The adhesive gets heat cycled by the polisher and when the heated up adhesive comes into contact with something wet, it will loose its adhesion power. Wait to introduce the pads to soaking until the pad has cooled. With Wolfgang Uber AIO I find that I need to clean the pads with Super Clean at 3:1 to completely remove the sealant, I`ve never had a pad delaminate due to brief cleaning, just heat and in the odd case soaking overnight (my mistake). What polisher are you using? What was your ambient temp of the doing work? I have also noticed that thicker pads are more prone to delamination on orbitals, specifically long throw machines. Your climate also plays a role, maybe you might need to invest in higher quality pads in the future? Griots Boss pads are pretty effective, but after playing with my Lake Country HDO Wool pads, the Lake Country HDO foam are in my future, the foam interface built into the pads allows the machine to be more effective on contours compared to the Griots pads. I`ve never had a Griots Boss pad delaminate, but I have had trouble keeping them spinning in really tight curves, not as much of an issue with the Lake Country HDO Wool pads nor ever an issue with CCS pads.
 
Agree with what others have said. Lower your speed, lighten up your pressure. You are generating too much heat which causes those Griots pads to peel. Also, you should be using 3-4 pads minimum, even for just an AIO job. I usually switch to a new pad for each panel. Especially with foam cutting pads, the pads soften up when heat is generated through them. So after about a panel or two it basically turns into a foam polishing pad in terms of softness instead of a foam cutting pad. You need to change the pads often to continue to get good cut.
 
I think the frequency of changing pads out relies on many factors. Applying a AIO I could make one pad 5.5” pad work, I’d need compressed air and highly diluted glass cleaner (1:128) or IPA at (1:32), it would also have to be a thin pad.
 
TheMeanGreen said:
I think the frequency of changing pads out relies on many factors...
Click to expand...

Yeah, agree. But with regard to correction I`d err on the side of "often" :D

Applying a AIO I could make one pad 5.5” pad work, I’d need compressed air and highly diluted glass cleaner (1:128) or IPA at (1:32), it would also have to be a thin pad.
Click to expand...

Hey, interesting! I might be able to get by with one if using something without significant abrasives (e.g., KAIO) on clean paint, don`t think I`ve ever tried though, even with air (which is indeed a *GREAT* thing for cleaning pads).

No issues with the Glass Cleaner messing with the AIO? And per usual...I`ll say how IPA just doesn`t do it for me.
 
Fishing -
I have never used air to clean foam pads in over 20 years..

I have only used clean, white towels, to wipe the pad face down, and physically - see - the amount and color of gunk coming off the paint.

Not really sure how air is ever going to do much to clean foam except to possibly drive the gunk deeper into the foam..
You need to wipe off that layer of dead product, paint, etc., off the pad if you want to get best performance and area covered, before you change the pad out..

And of course as has already been said many many times, you need at least 6 of each pad color, use, to get all the way around a vehicle, and on the bigger ones, you need more pads..

And on the dirtiest, most scratched, full of defects paint, you may still need more pads..

I always mind the amount of heat my pads get from my Rotary, and balance that with the amount of area covered with that pad along with the correction performance, and change them often..

I also - always - use a spray or two of pad conditioner on the pad, after I have wiped it clean with the towel, and then put on the product, and go do another section..

The idea here is to keep the amount of heat to a lower degree because some heat does help, but not let it get so hot that the back of the pad is really hot, and then, that helps cause the delamination you experienced...

Way back when, before microfiber pads came out, there would be occasional bad adhesive backing on Lake Country pads, and they would sometimes acknowledge it, and you could go back to the people you bought the defective backing pads from and they would send you replacements..

I also only use, as I have said before a Lake Country Pad Cleaning Product, (Snappy Clean) that works very well to clean the pads, rinses out way easier than anything else, especially those things made for dishes, and doesnt seem to hurt the adhesive on the back of the pads.. Since it was developed by the Pad Manufacturer in the first place, why would one not want to use this??

Hope you get this little challenge worked out !
Dan F
 
IME using air works best with smaller (foam) pads, and/but even then you need to work "towards the edge" to avoid just blowing the [stuff] down into the foam. Works like a charm with MF though.

And yeah, I too will wipe foam pads with a white cotton towel. Kevin B. prefers a MF, but I like cotton.
 
Stokdgs said:
I also only use, as I have said before a Lake Country Pad Cleaning Product, (Snappy Clean) that works very well to clean the pads, rinses out way easier than anything else, especially those things made for dishes, and doesnt seem to hurt the adhesive on the back of the pads..
Click to expand...

Heh heh, the only Pad Cleaners I`ve used sure did rinse out a lot easier!

But just for the sake of being, uhm....me:

why would one not want to use this??
Click to expand...

Because one might have a lifetime supply of Dawn Power Dissolver and otherwise unused APCs :D Sorry, couldn`t resist!
 
Accumulator said:
Yeah, agree. But with regard to correction I`d err on the side of "often" :D



Hey, interesting! I might be able to get by with one if using something without significant abrasives (e.g., KAIO) on clean paint, don`t think I`ve ever tried though, even with air (which is indeed a *GREAT* thing for cleaning pads).

No issues with the Glass Cleaner messing with the AIO? And per usual...I`ll say how IPA just doesn`t do it for me.
Click to expand...

TMG`s pad cleaning process:

Setting up for initial pass with "dry" pad:
1. Spritz the pad with water, somewhat liberally
2. Blow out pad with compressed air
3. Apply needed product
4. Spritz pad with water

Cleaning after each pass:
1. Hit pad with compressed air and get polisher up to speed with air, holding polisher into bucket, spray pad with compressed air starting from one side of pad and go to other.

Cleaning after each panel or every two panels:
1. Liberally apply "cleaner" to pad
2. Holding the polisher by the pad, insert into bucket and "spray" out pad
3. Insert #1 from above^^

Of course this process is primarily used for a thin pad of any type, thicker pads do get changed out for new ones.

To get a pad perfectly clean I will throw it in the washing machine with many others, using All Free and Clear with medium water temp, they come out good as new every time.

Honestly, wiping a pad off with a rag makes no sense to me. At the end of each pass or set, that pad has picked up spent polish, abraded clear coat, and anything else on the pad. Think about this, when one goes to wipe the pad with a rag, aren`t they pushing (to some degree) the spent product and everything else into the cells or fibers of the pad? Why not hit the pad with air that is not perpendicular to the pad face (and/or also allowing pad rotation)? Compressed air not perpendicular to the pad face, and centrifugal force will allow spent product to literally be ejected from the pad, to some degree. Also consider the fact that on a thinner foam pad, wool pad, and microfiber pad the compressed air will literally go through the structure of the pad, hit the backing plate or backing medium, and essentially force contamination from out of the structure of the pad. Any type of liquid fluid simply expedites this process. Compressed air when used correctly will also allow heat transfer from out of the pad, its backing plate, the polisher backing plate, and the metal that consists (can`t think of the word) of the pad to polisher connection.
 
I did get some "Snappy Clean Pad Cleaning Powder" but have not tried it yet. Will report back after I do. Thank you all for your help/comments.
 
The Mean Green --

Everyone has found, and/or is working on finding their best process for their needs.

I only use very clean, white, cotton hand towel size towels and apply pressure to the pad surface to wipe of all that gunk that came off the paint, and the product used to do it, and it gets about everything off the pad onto the clean white cotton towel, and the pad looks pretty darn clean again.. And I can tell by changing to a clean spot on the towel, when I have removed as much as possible off the pad..

Spraying the pad with a pad conditioner also helps this process and of course, helps keep the pad cooler..
I go through a lot of clean, white, cotton towels and pads and never have issues with the end result..

Perhaps my process works so great because I only use pads that are made of a foam that does not absorb product readily or very deep..

I honestly don`t see how spraying air on foam will really help that much, but again, we all find our best process for our needs and all is good..

I also don`t want to have to drag an air hose around the vehicle with me and have to hear the compressor come on all the time.. The less amount of stuff that can accidently hit or rub the paintwork, the better for my needs..

I suppose I can turn my Makita up to 3,000 rpm and it will unload some liquid, etc., out of the foam, but I don`t really want to blow stuff up into the air and have it come down on my clean paintwork later, etc..

Dan F
 
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