Orange peel- how do you tell what layer it's in
- Thread starter Wax2aMax
- Start date
Concours.John
Auto Detail & Restoration
Typically base coat is reduced to the point that it creates no peel. Unless it it is not properly reduced. Clear coat is thicker when applied. The peel is dependent on the person spraying, amount of coats, pressure, and the tip used in the gun to atomize the paint, temperature, and flash times. If the basecoat is adding to texture there will be a grainy texture noticed upon close inspection but this still will be minimal. Basecoat is typically much thinner than water in a two stage system.
It takes many coats of base to hide the preceding primer to properly "hide" due to this chemistry vs. The amount of clear that can be "layered" on top. The clear is most always the culprit of peel.
mrclean81
New member
Couldn't have said it better myself :yourrock
mrclean81
New member
Almost every car on the road has orange peel to some extent. I've worked on brand new Vettes that had more than a Camery lol. There's only one way to completely remove it, and honestly the only person who is going to notice it is you unless its a horrendous repaint. There is maybe 2% left on my Tahoe, and that's on the roof. Not once has someone walked up and said "Wow..your paint looks amazing...there's like no orange peel in it anywhere".
Stokdgs
dansautodetailing.com
It appears that with the change over to water based paint, etc., there is more orange peel than ever. And the factories appear to be using less and less paint on their vehicles which is also going to limit just how much one can remove, but as was so aptly and correctly stated - no one is going to notice how much orange peel you have or dont have, anyway, except you ! 
Dan F
Dan F
Old Pirate
AMG Classic Car Detailing
Same here!
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
Orange peel (as defined as some surface texture that is NOT perfectly level compared to the substrate it is on top of) is likely present in all of the layers of paint unless these layers (primer, base coat, or clear coat) have been block sanded level.
Generally speaking orange peel texture is most prevalent in the clear coat, but at the OEM level, it is likely in the primer and base coats as well. Modern, slow-drying, environmentally friendly water-based (borne) paints are slow drying, which tends to allow the paint to flow as it dries, increasing the texture.
Unless the texture in the base coat (if there is any) is extremely fine or pebbled, it is inconsequential. If you level the clear coat smooth, your reflections will appear smooth and orange peel free. Most base coats have a non-reflective satin finish, they provide the color tinting only. If the reflective clear coat on top is smooth, your paint will appear smooth as well.
The best example I can think of is a shallow pond with perfectly still water. The base/floor of the pond is rough (whether it be dirt, rocks, or other debris, twigs, plant-life), yet if the water is calm, the reflections will appear crisp and flat.
The thing to consider though is that with OEM paints (which likely have some texture that starts with the unsanded primer and base coats) is that when you level the clear coat you will have some areas that are thicker and thinner depending on the high-and-low spots of the paint underneath.
Going back to out pond analogy. Assume the pond is very shallow, maybe 12 inches. If you have bump in the floor of the pond (lets say an old tree stump) that is 9 inches tall, you only have 3 inches of depth in this area. It is why, if you want through the clear coat on an OEM/factory finish, you are more likely to do it on a high spot in the texture. Their may be something underneath the clear, not perfectly level, that thins the paint in that area.
Hope that helps.
Todd
Generally speaking orange peel texture is most prevalent in the clear coat, but at the OEM level, it is likely in the primer and base coats as well. Modern, slow-drying, environmentally friendly water-based (borne) paints are slow drying, which tends to allow the paint to flow as it dries, increasing the texture.
Unless the texture in the base coat (if there is any) is extremely fine or pebbled, it is inconsequential. If you level the clear coat smooth, your reflections will appear smooth and orange peel free. Most base coats have a non-reflective satin finish, they provide the color tinting only. If the reflective clear coat on top is smooth, your paint will appear smooth as well.
The best example I can think of is a shallow pond with perfectly still water. The base/floor of the pond is rough (whether it be dirt, rocks, or other debris, twigs, plant-life), yet if the water is calm, the reflections will appear crisp and flat.
The thing to consider though is that with OEM paints (which likely have some texture that starts with the unsanded primer and base coats) is that when you level the clear coat you will have some areas that are thicker and thinner depending on the high-and-low spots of the paint underneath.
Going back to out pond analogy. Assume the pond is very shallow, maybe 12 inches. If you have bump in the floor of the pond (lets say an old tree stump) that is 9 inches tall, you only have 3 inches of depth in this area. It is why, if you want through the clear coat on an OEM/factory finish, you are more likely to do it on a high spot in the texture. Their may be something underneath the clear, not perfectly level, that thins the paint in that area.
Hope that helps.
Todd
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
mikenap
New member
I've gotta say that I love reading your explanations of things like this, and I think the analogies you choose help immensely in making it easy for just about anyone to understand. Thanks Todd!:rockon
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
mrclean81
New member
How about a new $315,000 Ferrari 458 Italia.
God I would be so pissed...
AndrewBigA
New member
unreal how you break everything down in writing. :drool:
your like the human detailing dictionary. :bigups
yea, what todd said!
conc.john knows his stuff too!
aray
New member
It appears that with the change over to water based paint, etc., there is more orange peel than ever. And the factories appear to be using less and less paint on their vehicles which is also going to limit just how much one can remove, but as was so aptly and correctly stated - no one is going to notice how much orange peel you have or dont have, anyway, except you !
Dan F
I did a tour of the BMW manufacturing plant in Spartanburg that is turning out new X5's and X3's, and I can confidently say that 100% of vehicles coming out of that plan will have a "texture". Every single one I saw on the line had it.
They even had a example "cutaway" sort of door as an exhibit for visitors that showed the different layers of paint and the process.....even it had orangepeel in the clear.
Curious, do manufacturers actually acknowledge this as an issue?
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
I know they are aware of it. I remember David F spoke to an OEM paint rep who was adamant that the increase in surface area from the texture actually increases fade resistant and increase UV protection.
The thing is, I have seen factor paint jobs from the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and today. They always had texture.
C. Charles Hahn
CCH Auto Appearance, LLC
Right, but then also most OEMs are still using paints that are thermocured, and I believe the process of force-drying certain types of paint can cause an increase in texture as well since it accelerates the outgassing of solvents (while there are waterborne base coats, clear coats are still solvent based).
Addicted2Bling
New member
Right, but how many people do you know besides detailers and painters that actually consider orange peel a problem? People don't care, car manufacturers don't either...
aray
New member
I guess I'm struggling to find my opinion on this.....
If manufacturers don't acknowledge it as an 'issue', some even spin it as a benefit, it exists on all modern paint jobs, do we just learn to love it? Or do we determine a standard of 'acceptable' texture vs. unacceptable? Or do we randomly correct it...?
Wetsanding a new car doesn't make a lot of sense to me, especially as clearcoats get thinner and thinner.
Concours.John
Auto Detail & Restoration
Understanding that peel does hide minor defects. It is not all bad. A finish with no peel whatsoever will show the most minute defects. In all honesty a zero peel vehicle is held for rarely driven or only show vehicles.
The subsequent die back will always appear in a zero peal vehicle. Dependent on the layers is how many times this can be corrected. Peel hides this. Unless the layers are few but the down side there is less material to correct down the road.
This is why it is not a major concern with manufacturers.
Removing all peel will increase the maintenance of a finish to keep it looking perfect. Although it can be done the slightest mistake will show.
Just my opinion working with show cars.
The subsequent die back will always appear in a zero peal vehicle. Dependent on the layers is how many times this can be corrected. Peel hides this. Unless the layers are few but the down side there is less material to correct down the road.
This is why it is not a major concern with manufacturers.
Removing all peel will increase the maintenance of a finish to keep it looking perfect. Although it can be done the slightest mistake will show.
Just my opinion working with show cars.
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
John (in the post above) brings up some great points.
Take a Corvette Z06 that has carbon fiber front fenders, or a standard C6 that is plastic all around. I have seen both of these sanded relatively flat and quality (lack of) is evident in how wavy the panels are. Orange peel helps hide the defects that would otherwise be very visible on mass produced cars.
I have wetsanded several brand-new cars almost flat, but these were unique cases in which the car would not be driven much.
My Mazdaspeed3 has really bad orange peel, particularly on the doors. Does it effective the crispness of the reflections? Absolutely? Does it bother me? Well it did until I measured the paint, which was a ridiculously thin 3.2-3.5 mils across the board. Then I learned to live with it.