Obamacare, Fast and Furious, and other unconstitutional illegalities.
- Thread starter arack
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MSOsr
New member
The Constitution is a good thing....I think we should pay better attention to it.
Mike
Mike
Ron Ketcham
Active member
Couldn't agree more.
Offer over 53% of the voters "ice cream or a cow".
They want the ice cream, while the other 47% have to feed the cow, muck the stalls, mend the fences, bring the cows in, milk them, send the milk to someone to make ice cream and they want it for free, etc.
Grumpy
Offer over 53% of the voters "ice cream or a cow".
They want the ice cream, while the other 47% have to feed the cow, muck the stalls, mend the fences, bring the cows in, milk them, send the milk to someone to make ice cream and they want it for free, etc.
Grumpy
Ben@3D
New member
Ron Ketcham said:
I am the cow type of person. As in, image all the bbq you can get from one? :hungry:
MSOsr
New member
I clench my teeth every time I hear those who pay NO income tax telling the rich they need to pay their FAIR (bigger) share. Those that pay 0% telling those who pay 87% of all federal income taxes that the 87% people aren't paying their fair share?
And how would those people feel if the next President decided not to enforce, say, civil rights violations rather than not enforcing immigration laws?
The Constitution has been SO misinterpreted and stepped on......
Mike
And how would those people feel if the next President decided not to enforce, say, civil rights violations rather than not enforcing immigration laws?
The Constitution has been SO misinterpreted and stepped on......
Mike
Concours.John
Auto Detail & Restoration
It makes no sense to me to tax
the people more who are donating and pumping money into the economy on big items and services.
Take away that spendable income and many will truly see where are economy is at.
This the majority of the time is not handed down income. It was earned with many hours of hard work and perseverance.
As a business owner I pay to be on my wifes insurance. Obamacare could make me forced to pay more for less. I like many want no free ride I want to keep what is earned and do with it to help and what "I" want. Take it away and like most there will be cuts on where the money is spent.
Has our government forgot the simple trends of economics?!
the people more who are donating and pumping money into the economy on big items and services.
Take away that spendable income and many will truly see where are economy is at.
This the majority of the time is not handed down income. It was earned with many hours of hard work and perseverance.
As a business owner I pay to be on my wifes insurance. Obamacare could make me forced to pay more for less. I like many want no free ride I want to keep what is earned and do with it to help and what "I" want. Take it away and like most there will be cuts on where the money is spent.
Has our government forgot the simple trends of economics?!
jfelbab
New member
The problem today exists because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living. The politicians recognize this and since they want to keep their jobs, they take our hard earned money and give it away so they will keep their job. Wait, its worse, they are not only taking our money, they are also taking our children's and grandchildren's money just to remain in office.
Sooner, rather than later, this is going to end badly. I'd rather it end badly for a bunch of politicians than my children and grandchildren. How about you? Its time we take our checkbook back. November is coming.
Sooner, rather than later, this is going to end badly. I'd rather it end badly for a bunch of politicians than my children and grandchildren. How about you? Its time we take our checkbook back. November is coming.
Unfortunately there are many well-to-do baby boomers that still hold onto their liberal views from the 60's that do not agree with these opinions. Add them and their money to all of the "entitled" voters and it is tough to overcome. As a boomer with a wife that is uninsurable obamacare would probably actually benefit me but I can't step on my principles enough to support this or any other "big-government" expenditures and appropriations.
Today's Supreme Court decision could go a long way in determining the direction of our future. If obamacare is repealed in it's entirety as unconstitutional then there may be hope in November. We need a strong message!
Today's Supreme Court decision could go a long way in determining the direction of our future. If obamacare is repealed in it's entirety as unconstitutional then there may be hope in November. We need a strong message!
imported_WhyteWizard
New member
The individual mandate was originally a conservative idea, put out by the Heritage Foundation. The idea was that everyone has a chance of needing healthcare, even people who are young and healthy fall off motorcycles, get serious infections, have other problems, etc. and when they do, they go to the emergency room and, if they can't pay for the care, we do. The idea was make sure that everyone should have coverage so that people who are responsible don't end up paying for those who aren't. Isn't that the very definition of personal responsibility?
When it comes to the costs of healthcare, what do you think is more efficient in terms of dollars spent? How much of your healthcare premium goes to actual healthcare? What percentage goes to middle and upper managers and stock holders? How do you think that stacks up against Medicare?
Do you really like a situation where someone with a profit motive can ask you, "What's your next breath worth?" Is that a negotiation between equals?
Insurance companies aren't in business to provide healthcare. They're in business to make profits, corporations without regulation don't have any incentive to provide anything more than the worst service the market will put up with at the highest price and there's no real competition - these guys learned long ago that competing on price only shrinks their total income. When was the last time you saw a gas price war? Do you guys even remember those?
Robert
When it comes to the costs of healthcare, what do you think is more efficient in terms of dollars spent? How much of your healthcare premium goes to actual healthcare? What percentage goes to middle and upper managers and stock holders? How do you think that stacks up against Medicare?
Do you really like a situation where someone with a profit motive can ask you, "What's your next breath worth?" Is that a negotiation between equals?
Insurance companies aren't in business to provide healthcare. They're in business to make profits, corporations without regulation don't have any incentive to provide anything more than the worst service the market will put up with at the highest price and there's no real competition - these guys learned long ago that competing on price only shrinks their total income. When was the last time you saw a gas price war? Do you guys even remember those?
Robert
Yeah, I remember gas price wars....gas wouldn't be an issue either if we would just get the oil from the biggest oil reserve on the planet in our own back yard instead of catering to the Middle East.
Having worked in health care on the accounting side of the industry for 27+ years in both the hospital and long-term care environments for profit and not-for-profit entities I have a pretty fair understanding of profits, 3rd party reimbursement, and both Medicare and Medicaid.
I understand everyone paying their fair share....only wish that was going to happen. Personally I don't see much difference in my paying higher prices for free emergency care now for the unisured or paying the subsidies to help the poor pay for insurance they still can't afford and in the process get inferior care and coverage to my current situation. Millions of people with coverage will get dropped by their current employers who can't afford to meet the new Obamacare requirements (I know for a fact my company will be dropping coverage for all 5,000+ employees) and then be forced to negotiate their own coverage in the market. All I see is more government red tape for everyone and a system that will never be efficient depending on government to enforce the rules.
Obamacare is certainly not going to give providers any incentive.....
How many government run programs have been successful (by successful I would define that as requiring that the program would be self funded - zero I suspect). The American Dream has gone from working to better yourself and families to sticking your hand out for the life that you are "entitled" to receive for existing. I am pushing 60 and don't have children to worry about but I sure feel sorry for the subsequent generations inheriting this gigantic clusterfuxx that our big government with all this free spending is generating. Sooner or later the piper will have to be paid or we will end up just like Greece.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion I am obviously in the minority. All I can do is cast my one vote each time around and roll with the tidal wave coming.....
Having worked in health care on the accounting side of the industry for 27+ years in both the hospital and long-term care environments for profit and not-for-profit entities I have a pretty fair understanding of profits, 3rd party reimbursement, and both Medicare and Medicaid.
I understand everyone paying their fair share....only wish that was going to happen. Personally I don't see much difference in my paying higher prices for free emergency care now for the unisured or paying the subsidies to help the poor pay for insurance they still can't afford and in the process get inferior care and coverage to my current situation. Millions of people with coverage will get dropped by their current employers who can't afford to meet the new Obamacare requirements (I know for a fact my company will be dropping coverage for all 5,000+ employees) and then be forced to negotiate their own coverage in the market. All I see is more government red tape for everyone and a system that will never be efficient depending on government to enforce the rules.
Obamacare is certainly not going to give providers any incentive.....
How many government run programs have been successful (by successful I would define that as requiring that the program would be self funded - zero I suspect). The American Dream has gone from working to better yourself and families to sticking your hand out for the life that you are "entitled" to receive for existing. I am pushing 60 and don't have children to worry about but I sure feel sorry for the subsequent generations inheriting this gigantic clusterfuxx that our big government with all this free spending is generating. Sooner or later the piper will have to be paid or we will end up just like Greece.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion I am obviously in the minority. All I can do is cast my one vote each time around and roll with the tidal wave coming.....
imported_WhyteWizard
New member
The government isn't in the business of being self funded. The government is in the business of providing the infrastructure we all use for our enterprises. The free market rests on a foundation of public infrastructure. If you want to see the free market at work, look at Somalia or other places where they have no functioning government.
If you're 60 years old, you're old enough to remember kids in iron lungs too, and to remember getting the polio vaccine in a shot, then a sugar cube. Both of those vaccines and the rest we got in school were provided by the government, public health and we've grown up stronger as a result. You probably also went to public schools that didn't have 43 students in a class, so there's at least some chance you got a pretty decent education. You and I both got to be who we are because other people had the value - we're going to leave this country better than we found it. Not just take care of our own, but contribute to the nation as a whole.
Care to tell me what you think the role of speculation in gas price futures might be having on the price you pay at the pump? And, which do you think has the greater carrying cost, that cost not applied to patient care out of every dollar collected, medicare or private insurance?
People are pretty knee jerk anti-government but the corporations aren't. They have people flying into every state capitol and Washington twenty four hours a day to get the government to do things for them. If they were half as self reliant as most the people reading this we wouldn't have the problems we do.
Robert
If you're 60 years old, you're old enough to remember kids in iron lungs too, and to remember getting the polio vaccine in a shot, then a sugar cube. Both of those vaccines and the rest we got in school were provided by the government, public health and we've grown up stronger as a result. You probably also went to public schools that didn't have 43 students in a class, so there's at least some chance you got a pretty decent education. You and I both got to be who we are because other people had the value - we're going to leave this country better than we found it. Not just take care of our own, but contribute to the nation as a whole.
Care to tell me what you think the role of speculation in gas price futures might be having on the price you pay at the pump? And, which do you think has the greater carrying cost, that cost not applied to patient care out of every dollar collected, medicare or private insurance?
People are pretty knee jerk anti-government but the corporations aren't. They have people flying into every state capitol and Washington twenty four hours a day to get the government to do things for them. If they were half as self reliant as most the people reading this we wouldn't have the problems we do.
Robert
MSOsr
New member
It's nice to know that the federal government can now make us do anything it wants just by taxing us. You don't want to eat broccoli? Pay a tax.
Mike
Mike
WhyteWizard......obviously your opinion and mine will never be in sync....kind of like congress. I will just leave it with you having your viewpoint and I have a different one. It just goes to show how two intelligent people can have vast differences in intrepetation of the Constitution (both literal and in intent), indentifying problems and solutions, and drawing conclusions from the same set of facts. I can only assume it was somewhat similar in 1776 when John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were arguing about state's rights, etc. You see Obamacare reducing overall health care costs and I say it will increase them.
Here is a real life example..... My company provides health care to over 5,000 employees at a cost to the company (excluding what the employees contribute) of approximately 9 million dollars in todays dollars. To comply with Obamcare it would raise our company cost to about 16 million and we would probably go under since we don't make enough profit to cover this increase....not even close. So what happens....we pay the penalty for not providing employee coverage and our costs only go from 9 million to a little less than 13 million. Don't know if we will survive this or not. Most of these employees will not be able to afford the required insurance coverage (and who will enforce that) and the only way they will get coverage will be through a goverment subsidy. I certainly have no reason to believe this entitlement will be efficiently run and funded from the payroll tax they collect from companies that don't comply. I will be even more surprised if the health benefits are not vastly inferior since the health care providers will have no incentive to do a good job since their revenue will be determined by "Big Brother" and probably won't cover their costs....the very problem my company now deals with in the long term health care industry already through Medicare and Medicaid (knowing that even more cuts are coming soon). I will get off of my soap box now since I know this is contrary to all of your beliefs....and I respect that as well.
I just don't see the future of our country getting "better" when we are crippling future generations with debt. Printing a million dollars for every American would probably get you elected President but would not solve the problems of the country for more than a few short years.
Here is a real life example..... My company provides health care to over 5,000 employees at a cost to the company (excluding what the employees contribute) of approximately 9 million dollars in todays dollars. To comply with Obamcare it would raise our company cost to about 16 million and we would probably go under since we don't make enough profit to cover this increase....not even close. So what happens....we pay the penalty for not providing employee coverage and our costs only go from 9 million to a little less than 13 million. Don't know if we will survive this or not. Most of these employees will not be able to afford the required insurance coverage (and who will enforce that) and the only way they will get coverage will be through a goverment subsidy. I certainly have no reason to believe this entitlement will be efficiently run and funded from the payroll tax they collect from companies that don't comply. I will be even more surprised if the health benefits are not vastly inferior since the health care providers will have no incentive to do a good job since their revenue will be determined by "Big Brother" and probably won't cover their costs....the very problem my company now deals with in the long term health care industry already through Medicare and Medicaid (knowing that even more cuts are coming soon). I will get off of my soap box now since I know this is contrary to all of your beliefs....and I respect that as well.
I just don't see the future of our country getting "better" when we are crippling future generations with debt. Printing a million dollars for every American would probably get you elected President but would not solve the problems of the country for more than a few short years.
imported_Larry A
New member
Im for Obamacare, why, every important country in the world has some sort of medical coverage for their people. If we consider us the greatest country in the world, they we should have what lesser countrys have. I think everbody should have Medicare, it only covers 80% but its a start. We should keep out of foregn wars and take care of our people first. I could go on but Im tired.
Bottom line, it's Constitutional. You can gripe and complain, you may not think it fair or right- but the Supreme Court ruled it to be legal. To change the law, "you" need to change the U.S. Senate. Short of that happening (and I don't think 51 Republicans will be elected to the Senate), "you're" stuck with it.
imported_WhyteWizard
New member
Outlaw,
When you consider the costs of healthcare in this country, the amount we spend per person, we could easily cover everyone with single payer and have money left over. I know it dogmatic that the free market is more efficient, but that calculation never includes the whole price. They never include profits to share holders, CEO salaries, etc.
Here's the link. Healthcare expenditures per person.
Even in your example, if you backed out the profits on the premiums your company paid your costs of doing business would be much less. Also, people, if they didn't have to worry about healthcare, if they had single payer, would be more free, they wouldn't have to keep jobs they hated just because they couldn't afford to lose their healthcare due to pre-existing condition or other reasons. We wouldn't have the problems we do with workers compensation insurance because healthcare would be out of the equation. People would be better able to afford to start their own business' if they didn't have healthcare costs coming out of their pockets every month.
The system we have now, for profit, provides great compensations for people who own the business' but pretty lousy results over all. Sure, for those at the top who can afford the premiums and the co-pays the services available, particularly the ones where there's a lot on the line, are phenomenal in this country. When someone can look you in the eye and say, "So, what's your next breath worth?" There's a lot of money to made and so, you have, because of the free market a lot of supply for that particular high profit demand, but not so much supply in the every day, low profit but more - in the overall scheme of thing - important area of general health, well patient care.
It would be a big help if we made education a part of our infrastructure spending like roads and bridges and let people go to school till they got as much high quality education as they could handle. If for example, we made it possible for every child who had the innate ability to become doctors make that happen, we'd have both more and better doctors, because we would be sampling from the whole population, not just the population that can afford first rate schooling. All schools should be first rate, create and be the meritocracy some of us think we are.
Robert
When you consider the costs of healthcare in this country, the amount we spend per person, we could easily cover everyone with single payer and have money left over. I know it dogmatic that the free market is more efficient, but that calculation never includes the whole price. They never include profits to share holders, CEO salaries, etc.
Here's the link. Healthcare expenditures per person.
Even in your example, if you backed out the profits on the premiums your company paid your costs of doing business would be much less. Also, people, if they didn't have to worry about healthcare, if they had single payer, would be more free, they wouldn't have to keep jobs they hated just because they couldn't afford to lose their healthcare due to pre-existing condition or other reasons. We wouldn't have the problems we do with workers compensation insurance because healthcare would be out of the equation. People would be better able to afford to start their own business' if they didn't have healthcare costs coming out of their pockets every month.
The system we have now, for profit, provides great compensations for people who own the business' but pretty lousy results over all. Sure, for those at the top who can afford the premiums and the co-pays the services available, particularly the ones where there's a lot on the line, are phenomenal in this country. When someone can look you in the eye and say, "So, what's your next breath worth?" There's a lot of money to made and so, you have, because of the free market a lot of supply for that particular high profit demand, but not so much supply in the every day, low profit but more - in the overall scheme of thing - important area of general health, well patient care.
It would be a big help if we made education a part of our infrastructure spending like roads and bridges and let people go to school till they got as much high quality education as they could handle. If for example, we made it possible for every child who had the innate ability to become doctors make that happen, we'd have both more and better doctors, because we would be sampling from the whole population, not just the population that can afford first rate schooling. All schools should be first rate, create and be the meritocracy some of us think we are.
Robert
MSOsr
New member
WhyteWizard: Your opinion is dissimilar to mine; pay a tax. The tax is constitutional.
The vote on Obamacare on July 11 should be interesting. How many democrats up for reelection are going to vote for the largest tax increase on the middle class in the history of mankind?
Mike
The vote on Obamacare on July 11 should be interesting. How many democrats up for reelection are going to vote for the largest tax increase on the middle class in the history of mankind?
Mike