New Member extremely long time lurker

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DarkThrottle

Member
Hey guys Im Lewis a detailer in the Chicagoland area. I`ve been detailing for about 13 years, started on Adams products and discovered a lot more thru curiosity and sheer love of detailing. Along with detailing I`m a Auto/Diesel and Motorcycle tech . Im looking forward to learning more all these years running a flex 3401 and random orbitals im hoping to become skilled with the rotary now that I can afford to get a quality unit.
 
Dark Throttle -
Welcome, Lewis !

Happy to help with the Rotary Power..

I bought a Flex 3401VRG when they first came out over 10 years ago, just to see what all the hoopla was about..

My machine of choice will always be my big, old, Makita 9227C.. A very good, proven, machine that has been trouble-free forever..

See you around the campus !
Dan F
 
thanks for the warm welcome. im looking to pick up a Flex Pe14 within the next week or so im very confident in my ability to not burn paint but I also have a couple practice cars and some practice panels im going to intentionally burn thru at various speed just so I know what it actually takes. I`ve been searching the forums but haven`t really found a definitive answer what would be the best backing plate and best pads to start with I`ve used wool on a Milwaukee rotary to polish a tanker other than that I`ve never used a rotary or twisted wool on paint and don`t really feel I would ever need to. considering I have a combo with M105 and my flex that have been fast and unstoppable far as I`ve seen. its more so the time im looking to upgrade into a higher level of service so id like to have all the tools possible to do the job. so where should I look?
 
DarkThrottle- Welcome to Autopia!

A few sorta-random comments on rotaries (which I never use any more):

-Burning paint shouldn`t be a problem; I`ve *NEVER* done it with a rotary and TBH, I can`t imagine that level of user-error (I`ve gotten *VERY* aggressive with mine with no problems at all). Give the whole thing plenty of thought (and I don`t mean just a half-hour`s worth ;) ), work carefully, and I`d expect you`ll do fine.

-Be sure you have lighting that`ll show holograms so you don`t get a nasty surprise when you pull it out into the sun.

-Be careful not to take off too much clear; there`s only a tiny bit you can safely remove, and the rotary can work a lot faster than the Flex 3401 (which is what I now use for my rare aggressive work). Use an Electronic Thickness Gauge ("ETG") to keep track of how much you`re removing and remember that absolute perfection might not be the appropriate goal.

-Wool is *safer* than foam, if only because it runs so much cooler. I`ve never used twisted wool and agree that you shouldn`t need to get that aggressive.

-I`m a little curious about why you`re going the rotary route at all, but I`ll spare you my usual views on the topic other than... IMO by the time you become a genuine Rotary Meister, you could`ve done a full lifetime`s worth of correction with RO/DA polishers, and probably removed less clearcoat in the process.

-In the event that you do get holograms, and can`t sort them out via rotary (that`s one of my pet peeves with rotaries! Yeah, I get holograms enough that it`s a deal-breaker for me, and I`m no newbie), what will you use to correct those? Sometimes those supposedly shallow, minor "buffer swirls" are *incredibly* hard to remove, I`ve had some surprises that still make me wonder! Oh, and since you mentioned it, I myself always want a nicer finish that I can obtain with the Flex 3401.

Sorry I can`t help with the pads/plates...I haven`t touched either of my rotaries for over a decade and I`m sure things have changed a lot since then.

Oh, and heh heh...those Milwaukees are beasts, or at least they seemed like it back in the `70s! My Metabo is like some mini-toy by comparison, though it does the job fine. You`ll find today`s rotaries are pretty user-friendly, but give thought to what kind of start-up behavior you want and what your switch-location/style preference is.
 
Stokdgs said:
My machine of choice will always be my big, old, Makita 9227C.. A very good, proven, machine that has been trouble-free forever..
Click to expand...

While Stokdgs and I are on opposite sides of the Rotary Fence, I tend to agree with him about the big, old, Makita 9227C. I thought my Metabo would be more to my liking, but overall...nah, not so much.
 
DarkThrottle said:
thanks for the warm welcome. im looking to pick up a Flex Pe14 within the next week or so im very confident in my ability to not burn paint but I also have a couple practice cars and some practice panels im going to intentionally burn thru at various speed just so I know what it actually takes. I`ve been searching the forums but haven`t really found a definitive answer what would be the best backing plate and best pads to start with I`ve used wool on a Milwaukee rotary to polish a tanker other than that I`ve never used a rotary or twisted wool on paint and don`t really feel I would ever need to. considering I have a combo with M105 and my flex that have been fast and unstoppable far as I`ve seen. its more so the time im looking to upgrade into a higher level of service so id like to have all the tools possible to do the job. so where should I look?
Click to expand...

Lewis,
You are welcome !

I also have that Flex PE-14-2 150 Rotary in my cabinet as back up for my Makita.. I have never had to use it as back up.. But I have tried it out a few times on hard, German, paintwork, and it works ok..
It makes a lot of gear noise, and it is way lighter than my Makita..

I still prefer the heavier Makita because I like to apply so much downward pressure to the work, depending on how much pressure is needed..
The 10-lb Makita makes downward pressure easier for me..

I like to keep all speeds down from the nice 600rpm soft start to hardly ever over 1,000rpm..

I can achieve all I need at those speeds, and I NEVER have to clean up product sling all over the panel and especially in those edges... :)

NEVER allow the product/pad/paint to get DRY, and you will have longer work time that will achieve more, quicker, results, and again, no product dust everywhere, to clean up later..

I have only used Lake Country Backing Plates, all the way down to 1-inch size, and a steel spacer bolted directly to the spindle of the Rotary.. https://www.autopia-carcare.com/backing-plate-all-lake-country.html

The Spacer gives me exactly 1-1/4" additional space + the Backing Plate, then the pad, so I have enough room for almost every kind of spot where a big machine cannot possibly fit, but the pad will fit just fine.. You just have to ALWAYS MIND where that spinning spacer is between things, under things, etc., and NEVER let it hit them, ok ?
Get it ?
The Spacer will make the pad a little more hard to manage, until you get used to it and then naturally compensate for that little physics result. I never take the spacer off and have had it on for decades.. Of course, the longer the spacer, the more difficult it will be to learn how to manage..

I have tried all the pads from as far back as 50+ years ago.. Actually longer, but I refuse to keep counting backwards.. :)

The best Pads I have used are from Lake Country, but there are other makers out there now that I have hear have good pads also..

The Lake Country Purple Foam Wool Pads have proven themselves on dozens of vehicles that needed severe correction, and even a couple of Airplanes, who qualify for having the best, worst, paint, to ever have to clean up.. And this is using Meguiars 105 and 205 with foam afterwards.. https://www.autopia-carcare.com/foamed-wool-pads-thick.html

I also have had great success with the Lake Country Hydro-Tech Pads, but I believe they may have stopped making them or something.. If this is true, too bad because they have/had a couple of pads that could easily correct most anything and polish the surface down to about LSP ready condition..

Yes, it will take a few passes to clean up some blasted paintwork, but I have never had to change my process..

Correct with downward pressure however many passes (within reason), then allow it to polish down and most of the time, I get a really great, clear, glossy, smooth, finish, with even the Cyan pad..
Here is a link to the pads I mention -- https://www.autopia-carcare.com/hydrotech-foam-pads-lake-country.html

The big secret to using a Rotary and achieving perfect, flat, glossy, clear, finishes is keeping the machine AND downward pressure perfectly FLAT, through the entire pass stroke, on ALL the passes. And EACH pass has to be smooth, and not stop-and-go, smooth, same speed, all the way to the end..

Imagine you are using a paint gun painting that panel; each stroke has to be perfectly straight, smooth, and the same speed, all the way to the end..

And at the same time keeping the balance between speed (machine and arm) and downward pressure Perfect, and not allow very much heat under there..

I had the advantage to work through the years required in apprenticeships to Journeyman Painter, so a lot of time with some Excellent Painters really helped me to learn best, proven, processes from the Best..
We never made holograms, etc., in paint because that was just not acceptable..

You, as has already been said, will need the BEST Lighting possible on all this work from start to finish, to help you see what needs to be further done, or undone if that happens..

Glad to read you have a lot of time in the Shop ! This tells me alot about your work ethic and desire to DETAIL !!!
Dan F
 
DarkThrottle said:
thanks for the warm welcome. im looking to pick up a Flex Pe14 within the next week or so im very confident in my ability to not burn paint but I also have a couple practice cars and some practice panels im going to intentionally burn thru at various speed just so I know what it actually takes. I`ve been searching the forums but haven`t really found a definitive answer what would be the best backing plate and best pads to start with I`ve used wool on a Milwaukee rotary to polish a tanker other than that I`ve never used a rotary or twisted wool on paint and don`t really feel I would ever need to. considering I have a combo with M105 and my flex that have been fast and unstoppable far as I`ve seen. its more so the time im looking to upgrade into a higher level of service so id like to have all the tools possible to do the job. so where should I look?
Click to expand...

I have a flex 3401 im very familiar with I would use if I needed to finish down even further or remove holograms.... and I love my flex but sometimes its a pain being in the chicago area with our rough winters I get a lot of severely beaten finishes and with the flex I can get the job done very well its a matter of time to achieve the finish im looking for I have a few flat Griots Orange Foam pads I run with Menzerna SI 2500 that cuts thru almost anything on speed 6 on the flex. then I can come behind it with a CG Hex logic Orange with FG400 and she finishes most jobs down to a point good for me and most customers. Considering I notice I put a lot of time into almost all of my jobs I would love to have a tool to cut down on time especially when sanding and/or removing heavy oxidation a LHR75 Mini but I just felt like it took entirely too long to achieve any correction on highly damaged surfaces id rather use my flex in weird angles to get it done..


I
 
Stokdgs said:
Lewis,
You are welcome !

I also have that Flex PE-14-2 150 Rotary in my cabinet as back up for my Makita.. I have never had to use it as back up.. But I have tried it out a few times on hard, German, paintwork, and it works ok..
It makes a lot of gear noise, and it is way lighter than my Makita..

I still prefer the heavier Makita because I like to apply so much downward pressure to the work, depending on how much pressure is needed..
The 10-lb Makita makes downward pressure easier for me..

I like to keep all speeds down from the nice 600rpm soft start to hardly ever over 1,000rpm..

I can achieve all I need at those speeds, and I NEVER have to clean up product sling all over the panel and especially in those edges... :)

NEVER allow the product/pad/paint to get DRY, and you will have longer work time that will achieve more, quicker, and again, no product dust everywhere, to clean up later..

I have only used Lake Country Backing Plates, all the way down to 1-inch size, and a steel spacer bolted directly to the spindle of the Rotary.. https://www.autopia-carcare.com/backing-plate-all-lake-country.html

The Spacer gives me exactly 1-1/4" additional space + the Backing Plate, then the pad, so I have enough room for almost every kind of spot where a big machine cannot possibly fit, but the pad will fit just fine.. You just have to ALWAYS MIND where that spinning spacer is between things, under things, etc., and NEVER let it hit them, ok ?
Get it ?
The Spacer will make the pad a little more hard to manage, until you get used to it and then naturally compensate for that little physics result. I never take the spacer off and have had it on for decades.. Of course, the longer the spacer, the more difficult it will be to learn how to manage..

I have tried all the pads from as far back as 50+ years ago.. Actually longer, but I refuse to keep counting backwards.. :)

The best Pads I have used are from Lake Country, but there are other makers out there now that I have hear have good pads also..

The Lake Country Purple Foam Wool Pads have proven themselves on dozens of vehicles that needed severe correction, and even a couple of Airplanes, who qualify for having the best, worst, paint, to ever have to clean up.. And this is using Meguiars 105 and 205 with foam afterwards.. https://www.autopia-carcare.com/foamed-wool-pads-thick.html

I also have had great success with the Lake Country Hydro-Tech Pads, but I believe they may have stopped making them or something.. If this is true, too bad because they have/had a couple of pads that could easily correct most anything and polish the surface down to about LSP ready condition..

Yes, it will take a few passes to clean up some blasted paintwork, but I have never had to change my process..

Correct with downward pressure however many passes (within reason), then allow it to polish down and most of the time, I get a really great, clear, glossy, smooth, finish, with even the Cyan pad..
Here is a link to the pads I mention -- https://www.autopia-carcare.com/hydrotech-foam-pads-lake-country.html

The big secret to using a Rotary and achieving perfect, flat, glossy, clear, finishes is keeping the machine AND downward pressure perfectly FLAT, through the entire pass stroke, on ALL the passes. And EACH pass has to be smooth, and not stop-and-go, smooth, same speed, all the way to the end..

Imagine you are using a paint gun painting that panel; each stroke has to be perfectly straight, smooth, and the same speed, all the way to the end..

And at the same time keeping the balance between speed (machine and arm) and downward pressure Perfect, and not allow very much heat under there..

I had the advantage to work through the years required in apprenticeships to Journeyman Painter, so a lot of time with some Excellent Painters really helped me to learn best, proven, processes from the Best..
We never made holograms, etc., in paint because that was just not acceptable..

You, as has already been said, will need the BEST Lighting possible on all this work from start to finish, to help you see what needs to be further done, or undone if that happens..

Glad to read you have a lot of time in the Shop ! This tells me alot about your work ethic and desire to DETAIL !!!
Dan F
Click to expand...

appreciate all the kind words im thinking about the Flex Foam HD backing plate and I`ve been eyeballing an adapter I figure learn with it on there and never take it off or possibly add a PE8 since I can pick one up for under $200 its kinda like why not at this point. but I mainly just wanna get the big girl in my hands and go from there I plan on polishing my new ram and doing a coating and with a 2500 mega cab there is a lot of land to cover. I have a few light I have a handheld true view light that works wonderful for showing any imperfections in the paint, as well as a 5000 lumen Pro Spot detailing light I picked up that was very popular with body shops I have insane lighting I believe currently.. I really want to use the urowool pads and the thin ropes/rupes style wool pads really looking to learn how to finesse the paint at 600-900 rpm with a rotary as the best finishes I`ve ever seen have been achieved by masters with a rotary. years of studying mike Phillips, Larry kozilla, buff daddy and all the top guys in detailing its a skill I do not want to be without. I want to use the full line of menzerna polishes as those are my fav and my go to for 95% of jobs other times I have a few cg polishes and random other polishes I use when they seem to be a much better fit for the job.
 
DarkThrottle said:
I have a flex 3401 im very familiar with I would use if I needed to finish down even further or remove holograms.... and I love my flex but sometimes its a pain being in the chicago area with our rough winters I get a lot of severely beaten finishes and with the flex I can get the job done very well its a matter of time to achieve the finish im looking for I have a few flat Griots Orange Foam pads I run with Menzerna SI 2500 that cuts thru almost anything on speed 6 on the flex. then I can come behind it with a CG Hex logic Orange with FG400 and she finishes most jobs down to a point good for me and most customers. Considering I notice I put a lot of time into almost all of my jobs I would love to have a tool to cut down on time especially when sanding and/or removing heavy oxidation a LHR75 Mini but I just felt like it took entirely too long to achieve any correction on highly damaged surfaces id rather use my flex in weird angles to get it done..


I
Click to expand...

Totally on board with you, Lewis ! I bought the Flex 3401-VRG back when it first came out, just to see what it was all about..
Was really impressed first with the Flex Company, and what they did for a living, before they decided to make this machine..

But as you found out as well, it is not going to be the fastest, and it is not a direct-drive machine that can go forever like a Rotary can..

I also love the Rotary for the absolute speed it can work and not -ever- have an issue with this part, or that part, breaking and now its down and gone..

Not to even mention how -smooth- it runs and absolutely no -vibration-, etc., to make your hands go numb, etc.....

Also have loved all the Menzerna products, and have gone through at least 2 complete product names and numbers for all their inventory.. :) Hoping they leave this alone forever.. :)

I also have used with great success Sonax correcting product -Sonax Perfect Finish - and found it to be a very good correction, polishing, finishing, product (depending on pad type of course), and it is also very user-paint-friendly with all German paintwork.. I think this is it -- https://www.autopia-carcare.com/sonax-perfect-finish-polish.html#.XXRg2i6pH3g

My other go-to has always been the bane of a lot of people - Meguiars 105 (especially) and Meguiars 205..

M105 with Rotary Power can do anything really well, if one takes the time to work with it by keeping it all just moist enough, so it works its self to a high gloss and clarity..
But you have to learn how to use it, and then how it works on -this-paintwork on -this-panel- and go from there..

I removed some awful, destructive scratching from even that soft Jet Black Lexus paint with M105 and M205, and it turned out absolutely amazing! I got to then Detail the entire Lexus because that 1 door was 1 zillion times nicer than the rest of the vehicle.. :) (M105 + LakeCountry Purple Foam Wool, M205 with LakeCountry Flat White Pad)
PM me your email and I will send you the pics if you want..

Hey I know about your Chicago weather !!! I flew there once for a 3-week Rockwell ACD Class in February.. Parked the car under the huge hotel outside roof parking lot..
Went out the next morning and could NOT find or see the cars !!! Overnight it must have snowed FEET to absolutely cover every car in the vicinity with snow so high completely covered that I could not even figure out where in that huge snowbank Might the rental car be... Stayed butt-cold like that for the entire 3 weeks !!! :)
Dan F
 
DarkThrottle said:
appreciate all the kind words im thinking about the Flex Foam HD backing plate and I`ve been eyeballing an adapter I figure learn with it on there and never take it off or possibly add a PE8 since I can pick one up for under $200 its kinda like why not at this point. but I mainly just wanna get the big girl in my hands and go from there I plan on polishing my new ram and doing a coating and with a 2500 mega cab there is a lot of land to cover. I have a few light I have a handheld true view light that works wonderful for showing any imperfections in the paint, as well as a 5000 lumen Pro Spot detailing light I picked up that was very popular with body shops I have insane lighting I believe currently.. I really want to use the urowool pads and the thin ropes/rupes style wool pads really looking to learn how to finesse the paint at 600-900 rpm with a rotary as the best finishes I`ve ever seen have been achieved by masters with a rotary. years of studying mike Phillips, Larry kozilla, buff daddy and all the top guys in detailing its a skill I do not want to be without. I want to use the full line of menzerna polishes as those are my fav and my go to for 95% of jobs other times I have a few cg polishes and random other polishes I use when they seem to be a much better fit for the job.
Click to expand...

Lewis,
I know nothing about the Flex Foam HD Backing Plate, but I do remember that after we all cut down the supplied 6" Backing plate to 5 inches, (on the Original 3401-VRG) so we could all use our pads, they came out with an adapter to allow this to happen..

Then, I believe, I read that Flex has since made smaller backing plate adapters still..

But the only thing is that there is a lot of plastic parts under there that are not ever going to work as hard before breaking or ever last as long as a direct-drive motor to backing plate to pad...

I will always just use the big Makita -with- that spacer I told you about for everything and save that $200+ for other things.. I have Detailed hundreds of vehicles with this machine and have never needed something "smaller" to fit somewhere.. Also, remember, something "smaller" is NOT going to perform the same as the big machine that has the bigger motor and weight..
I spot fix little things all the time with just a smaller backing plate and pad on the Makita and never have an issue, etc...

Yes, lots of new pads, etc., out there; I tend to stay with -proven- products , vetted by trusted friends, and especially by me...

But then, I learned how to use any pad and product in the automotive paint shop business, and get the absolute best finish, because way, way, back then, there were only so many products and certainly, not the mind-numbing-number of choices that grows in huge numbers every year to satisfy - Marketing 101 -.... :)

The only C/G products I buy are their microfiber cleaner, their citrus car wash, and their liquid interior cloth cleaner...They used to make a nice tall can of spray for all the Black, etc., of engines and compartments, etc., that worked really good..

Their booth at SEMA has to be the biggest, stuffed with the most products, space I have ever seen in the world!!! I cannot imagine what their store must look like... Overwhelming would be putting it mildly.. :)

Sounds like your lighting is fine, keep it up ! I have all Scangrip now, and am so ok with no more heat producing 2-500watt halogen heater bulbs on stands.. :)

Yes, there are some great experienced people out there ! Now, make a plan and execute it so you can join the ranks ! :)

Dan F
 
Stokdgs said:
Totally on board with you, Lewis ! I bought the Flex 3401-VRG back when it first came out, just to see what it was all about..
Was really impressed first with the Flex Company, and what they did for a living, before they decided to make this machine..

But as you found out as well, it is not going to be the fastest, and it is not a direct-drive machine that can go forever like a Rotary can..

I also love the Rotary for the absolute speed it can work and not -ever- have an issue with this part, or that part, breaking and now its down and gone..

Not to even mention how -smooth- it runs and absolutely no -vibration-, etc., to make your hands go numb, etc.....

Also have loved all the Menzerna products, and have gone through at least 2 complete product names and numbers for all their inventory.. :) Hoping they leave this alone forever.. :)

I also have used with great success Sonax correcting product -Sonax Perfect Finish - and found it to be a very good correction, polishing, finishing, product (depending on pad type of course), and it is also very user-paint-friendly with all German paintwork.. I think this is it -- https://www.autopia-carcare.com/sonax-perfect-finish-polish.html#.XXRg2i6pH3g

My other go-to has always been the bane of a lot of people - Meguiars 105 (especially) and Meguiars 205..

M105 with Rotary Power can do anything really well, if one takes the time to work with it by keeping it all just moist enough, so it works its self to a high gloss and clarity..
But you have to learn how to use it, and then how it works on -this-paintwork on -this-panel- and go from there..

I removed some awful, destructive scratching from even that soft Jet Black Lexus paint with M105 and M205, and it turned out absolutely amazing! I got to then Detail the entire Lexus because that 1 door was 1 zillion times nicer than the rest of the vehicle.. :) (M105 + LakeCountry Purple Foam Wool, M205 with LakeCountry Flat White Pad)
PM me your email and I will send you the pics if you want..

Hey I know about your Chicago weather !!! I flew there once for a 3-week Rockwell ACD Class in February.. Parked the car under the huge hotel outside roof parking lot..
Went out the next morning and could NOT find or see the cars !!! Overnight it must have snowed FEET to absolutely cover every car in the vicinity with snow so high completely covered that I could not even figure out where in that huge snowbank Might the rental car be... Stayed butt-cold like that for the entire 3 weeks !!! :)
Dan F
Click to expand...

Im a big fan of M105 when I finally got comfortable enough for wetsanding that was the compound that has allowed me to wetsand with zero fear of being able to remove the sanding marks.

I also agree with you on how smooth the rotary is vs other action polishers. Something about 20 hours behind my 3401 has really kept me away from doing any physical polishing with it in the last 2 years but I have recently been getting busy again after doing a bike and a car and I want to take advantage of the business but I don`t feel like my hands, wrists and arms can handle that many hours multiple times a month and the abuse from motorcycle racing as well. My sights are currently dead set on a Flex PE14 ive loved my 3401 and love the feel and quality look of their polishers. When I see a flex tool I without a doubt look at it and think that`s a high quality tool.

One thing im having trouble with is deciding polishing pads for my rotary of choice. I don`t know what would be the best option from LC I see a lot of options from wool, foamed wool, HDO, CCS, Flat, Double sided, Waffle Etc I can get carried away buying pads so id really like to keep my options simple far as 2 heavy cut options, 2 regular cut options, 2 finishing options, 2 jeweling options ill probably use my PC or 3401 for LSP application I only believe in removal by hand.

Would like to be able to 1 step with a rotary as an option for budget detail options as currently I do one steps using the last bottles of FG400 in my stash but 15 hours on a one step isn`t cost effective for me. Would like to be able to achieve the same great one step results I achieve w my 3401/Orange Griots Boss Pad/FG400 or 3401/Orange LC flat pad/ FG400 in much less time.
 
Also 2 pads I’m interested in the LC HDO pads and the Force Hybrid pads ? Will both of those work with a rotary I can’t seem to find anything in the HDO line I did find a video on the Force Hybrid line w mike Phillips that says it’s perfect for a rotary as well


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