Michelin Pilot Sport 4S - compound cracking damage from near freezing?

S

Surly

New member
So, I`ve been running UHP summer tires on my vehicles for about 18 years. I also live in Canada. Since I DIY my seasonal changes, I don`t have to make appointments to get it done etc... and sometimes I`m pushing my luck to run summer tires as long as possible as long as it`s still safe to do so.

Some cold snaps (e.g. cold, clear, dry) in the late fall or early spring don`t factor into my decision when to switch. Sometimes it can be -8C at night and still 12C and sunny the next day - no problem. I can make it to the train station in the morning. Sure, they aren`t at their best but, honestly, Pilot Sports in -5C dry weather are still better than full snow tires in the same conditions in my experience.

So, it was time for some new summer tires and I got a set of Pilot Sport 4S ready to be mounted on the wheels early next week. Oddly, we haven`t had any snow in my area since around Valentine`s day, but it`s still very cool (-5C night, +5C to +10C day, on average let`s say). After Easter Holiday driving was over, I was going to seriously contemplate doing the switch. My Hakkapeliittas sound like they`re in pain rolling around in dry early spring weather all the time.

But then I found this. I`ve never read anything like this about UHP summer tires before:

The Pilot Sport 4S excels in warm dry and wet conditions, so like all Max Performance Summer tires, is not intended to be serviced, stored nor driven in near- and below-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.

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and
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Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.
Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced.​

So changing tire pressure in freezing temperature might crack the compound? If I`m hit by one -5C dry morning commute to the train station with my summers on I may irreversibly damage them? Really? That seems pretty extreme.

Just wondering if anyone else has any comments or insight. From everything I`ve read, the 4S performance is unquestionable. I`m just surprised to see this compound cracking stuff...
 
Yes, summer tires ran in cold weather can cause the rubber to crack. The summer tires become very hard. So instead of having Carmel that gives and moves. You have rock candy that can crack, and break. I have been using summer and winter tires for a number of years now. Snow or not on the ground winter tires will give you more grip than summer tires in the cold. That`s why they developed winter tires, and we no longer have the snow tire category. They are developed for cold weather not just for snow. My gosh when I lived in Houston even in the fifties the summer tires were slick. If it was that cold and rain, one might as well been on racing slicks. So after learning that I just drove one of my other vehicles when it was cold. We`ve been hitting days in the fifties here, but I know more snow is to come here in Colorado. So I`m not taking my winter tires off yet.
 
Coleroad said:
Yes, summer tires ran in cold weather can cause the rubber to crack. The summer tires become very hard. So instead of having Carmel that gives and moves. You have rock candy that can crack, and break. I have been using summer and winter tires for a number of years now. Snow or not on the ground winter tires will give you more grip than summer tires in the cold. That`s why they developed winter tires, and we no longer have the snow tire category. They are developed for cold weather not just for snow. My gosh when I lived in Houston even in the fifties the summer tires were slick. If it was that cold and rain, one might as well been on racing slicks. So after learning that I just drove one of my other vehicles when it was cold. We`ve been hitting days in the fifties here, but I know more snow is to come here in Colorado. So I`m not taking my winter tires off yet.
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I get that winter tires grip in the cold, and summer tires aren`t at their A-Game. Although I don`t agree that winters are necessarily "always" better than summers in "near freezing" transition weather. As I said, years ago I had much, much better dry performance and especially braking from Pilot Sport PS2s than the winter tires I put on in identical condition. This is because of all the cuts and sipes in winter tires causing extreme squirm and flex compared to the UHP tires. Every time I put winter tires on the first thing I lose (and miss) is braking performance.

So, regardless of general performance (I`m not trying to start a "why winter tires are good" thread), my point is that I`ve never seen warnings like those printed before. I`d have to keep my winter tires on until mid-late June and take them off in September to be guaranteed that I was never in a situation to encounter "near freezing". Sorry folks - that`s not going to happen. And I don`t just have another back up vehicle ready with all seasons for that day`s trip to the commuter train lot.
 
If near-freezing conditions are a possibility I`d take those warnings seriously and shop for UHP Summer tires that aren`t known to be as sensitive. I`ve had both- ones I`d never drive in the cold and ones that were pretty OK (once they warmed up) and have learned to take the topic seriously even though I`ve never had the cracking/etc.

(I haven`t bought Summer UHP tires for so long I have no idea what`s what with them these days.)

This is why I don`t run them on the Crown Vic- it might get used in cold (but not wintery) weather and I`ve had summer tires that I would NEVER want on a big heavy car when it`s cold. Same with my wife`s A8 even though it also has winter wheels/tires; I haven`t decided what I`ll do with the S8 next time...

When I call for tires, my criteria is usually "best for an autoX in the rain on a 40 degree day". That`s generally what works best for my wife and me.

[INSERT rant about Michelin changing their Pilot A/S to be more winter/snow-friendly, the original version was the Perfect Daily Driver Tire IMO and the newer ones are too "winter tire"-y for our taste...bought `em anyhow.]
 
Yep - the focus of my "rant" is DAMAGE, not lack of PERFORMANCE.

It`s too late to shop, the PS4S stack is already in my garage. Well, actually, my basement now for fear of my garage being too cold for the poor things. I`ve always seen warnings on UHP tires not to use in winter, or cold, because grip levels are dangerously low etc...etc... but never seen a warning that you might destroy them.

The text that I found was on TireRack under the PS4S. Compare now what I find at michelinman.ca, Michelin`s Canadian website:

Summer tires are primarily designed for high-performance vehicles and provide optimal dry and wet performance levels in a temperate environment. Summer tires are not designed to be used during the winter season where temperatures are colder and approach freezing consistently as their performance would be less than optimal.
Click to expand...

Now that ^^^ is perfectly reasonable and understandable, and is the kind of statement I would expect about all UHP tires.
 
This tire issue brings up three concerns:
1) Ultra-High Performance tires that come as original (optional or standard) equipment of manufacturer (OEM) need to have warnings about this ambient temperature "problem" in the owner`s manual (IE, what is a "safe" operating temperature).
2) I was unaware that STORING them in ultra-cold temperatures can cause these cracks.
3) Manufacturers and dealers need to be ware that:
a.) Shipping them in ultra cold weather can cause tire problems
b.) Having them in inventory in ultra-cold weather (IE, on the lot) can cause tire problems.

Solution? Ship any vehicle with OEM All-Season tires and let the dealer sell vehicle with UHP tire as a dealer-installed option WHEN WEATHER PEMITS.

This tire situation is akin to having basketball shoes on a person to run in cold-weather 6-kilometer race. Basketball shoes are designed for indoor hardwood floors and the foot motions associated with playing basketball (stopping-and-starting, cutting, jumping) Trail-running shoes might be a better fit for a cold-weather 6K run.
 
I was surprised by the cold storage issues. I talked to Bridgestone and got the same response. Their statement was summer tires stored for 60 days or more below 50 degrees shouldn`t be used. Well I`ve been guilty of that when I lived in Michigan. It`s not like my garage was heated. I didn`t drive the car but they were on the car in a cold garage all winter.
 
In three years on two Vette forums the only cracked tires I am aware of were two or three and those were on brand new cars coming off a train somewhere in the Midwest in dead of winter. Even then, I do not recall verified proof of such. I daily drive mine and have three seasons of seeing temps down to 15 degrees in the winter and I keep it in a non heated garage.

Certainly wouldn’t drive it in snow nor come close to pushing them close to their limit in those temps. Performance obviously is effected. The tires warm up after a few minutes driving.

No cracks. I am willing to concede that over time in the lower temps that the rubber hardens permanently. Don’t care. They do that anyway and I will need a new set due to mileage before that point.

There are warnings in the owners manual.

The inter web forums are full of tire experts that read the warnings, their car doesn’t get driven from when the leaves turn until pollen starts, and they are certain everyone’s tires are going to disintegrate if they see frost.

My personal opinion is that there is a level of corporate lawyer litigation requirement in the warnings due to reduced performance in the cold that leads to dramatic far to the right warnings. Kinda like hot warnings on coffee.

I just purchased my second set.
 
The Michelin`s are the only tires I`ve seen this warning. My PSS`s came with the same warning when I bought them last summer (P4S not available in my size yet). I`ve stored them in my garage all winter, which I`m pretty sure got into the low 30`s upper 20F`s a couple of times, but I`ve not seen any cracks. Since we`re still seeing lows in the 20`s I`m nowhere near mounting them yet.

In my younger, more naive years I foolishly ran several sets of Conti, Bridgestone, and Dunlop summer tires year round. I`m quite certain they experienced multiple cycles into the 20`s, if not colder, not to mention driven in snow. None of those sets cracked or experienced any other type of rubber failure. I ran all of them until treadwear dictated replacement, not structural failure.

I can only imagine, Michelin is either putting those warnings out due to an overabundance of caution, or maybe there is something unique about their tire compounds which make them more prone to cold-weather failure than other brands.
 
Desertnate said:
The Michelin`s are the only tires I`ve seen this warning...I can only imagine, Michelin is either putting those warnings out due to an overabundance of caution...
Click to expand...

FWIW...wasn`t it Michelin that said not to use a pressure washer on their (wheels and) tires lest it mess up the bead?
 
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