Menzerna info on polishes and silocon.

Can you remove silicon from a clearcoat completely?

It is impossible to remove silicon from a painted surface without using a chemical process so aggressive that it dissolves the paint. Wax and grease removers will chemically remove one layer of silicon off at a time but are unable to completely remove all the silicon. Tests by Dr Michael Hauber at Menzerna using a spectroscope showed the layers become thinner but the silicon remains. Removing silicon completely can take place over time and involves a lengthy process of oxygen, chemicals, time and sunlight.



PREPARATION

If the car has been treated with silicon, use a wax and grease remover to remove as much of the silicon as possible before polishing. You will not be able to remove it all but it helps.



THE MECHANICAL PROCESS

Polishing is a mechanical process. When a silicon-free polish works on the surface of paint it uses aluminium oxide marbles, suspended in water and hydrocarbons and a mechanical process to abrade the surface of the paint down to the level of the bottom of the scratch. Silicon cannot be removed this way. Silicon is removed by a chemical means and is designed to resist being removed by mechanical means. Instead the silicon mixes with the blend of paint dust and polish powder and it creates a smear on the paint.



We should differentiate between swirl marks in the silicon layer and swirl marks in the paint underneath. Some polishes may appear to remove the swirl marks in the paint but are really only working on the layer of silicon. So the swirl marks in the paint itself remain unaffected by the polishing and reappear after a few weeks, as the silicon is being removed by time.





Very interesting.
 
When you hear some professionals and hobbyists also talk about seeing a strange smear/ghost that seems to move around on the paint and they really can't figure out why, remember this thread and silicon.

Changeling
 
That's a good link. I have had that one stored in my favs for a long time now. There are a couple of other ones similar from different countries too. I think I might have posted this somewhere back in Jan. Very helpful info there.
 
That's Tim Searson's website. Have spoken to him before. Has a shed full of LC stuff

I do not do two step level 4 shine work that much, it is mostly level 5 three to five step.

My shop only caters for enthusiasts, clubs, those who love their cars but don't have the time or knowledge. No dealership work.



I notice that the PO85U listed on the site has a different label than mine. Mine is an american labelled Final Polish II in black

Aussie ones are blue, red and white
 
Interesting stuff on that page, but how do we know that info is totally correct? You can't remove silicon? I'm a little unclear why this would necessarily be true...



The other tidbit I found very interesting:

OTHER OPTIONS FOR MENZERNA USERS

MICRO POLISH OR FINAL POLISH

When price is no option, you can generate a level 5 shine without the use of silicon or wax. Use PO85RE5, PO85RD or PO106FF instead of PO85U. These are OEM products. Designed for ceramic clears. These products use the same very expensive ingredients for the ultimate shine but Menzerna varies the amount of powder in each formula.
Click to expand...



So does that mean the PO85RD 3.01 and PO106FF I bought from Autogeek have the same abrasives in them? I don't doubt it, but if thats the case, why is 106FF so much more expensive than the super intensive polish? You would think the opposite should be true. Also, why would 106FF finish to a higher gloss if its the same with a lower powder content?
 
The 3.01 and 106 that you bought will give the level 5 shine and are the same stuff.



From my experience between the 106 and 85rd are the lube oils. 85rd has more lube.



I personally like 106 a tad better and has a better cut also, but is still VERY mild. Both leave the same finish. 85rd may work better on the ultra super soft clears as it has more lube guard in it. But 106ff on a soft megs finish pad will do the same on soft paints.



They all work great on PC, but really exceed high levels by rotary with experience. Also the level 5 shine they rate it is by rotary use. PC worked in long enough will give close results though.



SIP and 106 will give you such a high razor sharp mirror finish that your neighbor will complain about.
 
rydawg said:
The 3.01 and 106 that you bought will give the level 5 shine and are the same stuff.



From my experience between the 106 and 85rd are the lube oils. 85rd has more lube.



I personally like 106 a tad better and has a better cut also, but is still VERY mild. Both leave the same finish. 85rd may work better on the ultra super soft clears as it has more lube guard in it. But 106ff on a soft megs finish pad will do the same on soft paints.



They all work great on PC, but really exceed high levels by rotary with experience. Also the level 5 shine they rate it is by rotary use. PC worked in long enough will give close results though.



SIP and 106 will give you such a high razor sharp mirror finish that your neighbor will

complain about.
Click to expand...





Rydawg, what you said is putting it lightly. When a lot more people try SIP followed by 106FF there is going to be a Hell of a lot more "Thread" time given to these two in in sequence polishing. I knew/used the 106FF but Superbee364 turned me on to the SIP.



Give the SIP a try with the LC foamed wool for something amazing :woot2:



Change
 
So does that mean the PO85RD 3.01 and PO106FF I bought from Autogeek have the same abrasives in them? I don't doubt it, but if thats the case, why is 106FF so much more expensive than the super intensive polish? You would think the opposite should be true. Also, why would 106FF finish to a higher gloss if its the same with a lower powder content?
Click to expand...
Menzerna's pdf shows 5 polishes with the new abrasive for hard clear coats. The cut varies from 1.5-3.5 and gloss from 3.0-5.0. So they all have the "same" abrasive, but that doesn't mean the size or the shape or the speed of breakdown or whatever else is the same :) That's how I look at it anyhow.



It also shows 3 different PO85RD* polishes, so between their confusing nomenclature, the change to USA labeling and people abbreviating, it's hard to tell sometimes what people are really referring to. The three polishes you quoted from the article are obviously a "family" of finish polishes with decreasing cut and the same gloss, with PO85RD being 1.5/5 and PO106FF 2.5/5. PO85RD3.01 is 3.5/3.0.
 
There is a couple of po85 polishes.



po85rd3.02

po85rd3.01

po85re5

po85



The ceramic clear SIP polishes are the 3.01 and the 3.02. The finish polishes are po106ff, po85re5, po85rd.



MenzernaUSA took the po85rd3.01 and rebottled cause the other bottles were in German and now calls it po83, so there is no confusion with all the po85's.



I have a bottle of the 3.02 and I can not even read it.



The grit is so fine in these and you can not even feel it. The are all very creamy. The best thing is it takes 12 small drops to do a whole hood.
 
Changeling said:
Some of you might find this an interesting read if you use there polishes or intend to. There is also some great information about putting "silicon" product on your paint that you should find very interesting.



Australian International Trade Links Pty Ltd



Changeling
Click to expand...

I'm sorry Changeling for getting back to you so late, but I have been doing my research on this for a couple of weeks now and as nobody knows anything I do remember reading this back in the winter. I had an issue myself on 2 used cars for a dealership and knew what it was after watching it happen in front of me and had seen it hundreds of times before.



I however did get a couple of wierd spots (only seen in the sun) after I did a section to remove a scratch on a car for the dealer as a 1 minute favor. I then noticed a couple wierd spots, but it did come off with prep solve after a couple wipes.



I asked the dealer what was put on the car and he showed me this spray wax that is used only by dealers as a quick hide for scratches. I noticed it was very high in oily silicones and the ones that are not good. This is why I always hated doing dealer cars and are the hardest to remove the scratches. My degreasers will go flat when I use it on the car and it tells me right there I am in for a treat. I think that is how I got so damn good working on dealer cars for the past 15 years. I always swore up and down badly about the bad silicones.



I think this is why the dealers should stop using those heavy silicone products:bat



This happens with quite a few polishes and not just Menzerna polishes. Menzerna just brings out the true clarity and will make it show faster than most polishes. If one is having a very hard time polishing there car and having a hard time removing swirls via rotary and had just recently bought their car and this is one of the problems that it is....Dealer drenched your paint with the bad silicones.



I know there is a bunch of different silicones in some products, but the ones that are bad are the ones sold to the dealerships mainly and are the old fashioned ones.



NOT ALL DEALERS USE THIS STUFF! Thank God!



I have many conclusions and know why mainly Menzerna brings these spots out faster than others, but I will not post anything up until I am 100% sure, but I am so far 99%.
 
wannafbody said:
Can you remove silicon from a clearcoat completely?

It is impossible to remove silicon from a painted surface without using a chemical process so aggressive that it dissolves the paint. Wax and grease removers will chemically remove one layer of silicon off at a time but are unable to completely remove all the silicon. Tests by Dr Michael Hauber at Menzerna using a spectroscope showed the layers become thinner but the silicon remains. Removing silicon completely can take place over time and involves a lengthy process of oxygen, chemicals, time and sunlight.



PREPARATION

If the car has been treated with silicon, use a wax and grease remover to remove as much of the silicon as possible before polishing. You will not be able to remove it all but it helps.



THE MECHANICAL PROCESS

Polishing is a mechanical process. When a silicon-free polish works on the surface of paint it uses aluminium oxide marbles, suspended in water and hydrocarbons and a mechanical process to abrade the surface of the paint down to the level of the bottom of the scratch. Silicon cannot be removed this way. Silicon is removed by a chemical means and is designed to resist being removed by mechanical means. Instead the silicon mixes with the blend of paint dust and polish powder and it creates a smear on the paint.



We should differentiate between swirl marks in the silicon layer and swirl marks in the paint underneath. Some polishes may appear to remove the swirl marks in the paint but are really only working on the layer of silicon. So the swirl marks in the paint itself remain unaffected by the polishing and reappear after a few weeks, as the silicon is being removed by time.





Very interesting.
Click to expand...

I have known this for years, but have always encountered these mainly with used cars from auction that are siliconed to death. This is also why I used Presta 1500 as it is a strong chemical cleaner on wool.



I am working on putting a very informative thread together and this will help out tons of people here and break the bitsh detailing barrier. I know pretty much how to deal with the silicone issues as I have on thousands of cars, but I will share my info with you guys as soon as I can gather everything together...Be patient:cool: I can not find all the correct info on the net and will have to conduct tests on my own including aluminum oxides and there reactivity and also mechanical abrasives. Why one smears and why one blotches.



It will also answer why alot of polishes that you guy use sometimes haze also.



Thanks Ryan
 
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