M105 (original version) | Hydro-Tech (cyan) pad

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KWANG-SEOK

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It's probably a bit late to ask this question, but I recently got a PC to remove some swirls and haze on my new Corvette. The SMR combined with the PC worked flawlessly, but now I'm concerned I may have "damaged" my car by removing too much clearcoat. Why? Well, in some areas I had to make 3 or 4 passes with the PC/SMR combo to get the area really swirl-free. There are a few more scratches left (although you can see them, you can't feel them with a fingernail) but I'm reluctant to polish any more...abrasives, no matter how mild, make me nervous.



FWIW, I haven't used anything harsher than 3M SMR anywhere on the car (except for 3M Scratch Remover on one spot which I really had to work).



Anyway, the car looks fantastic now. Logically I'm pretty sure I haven't done a large amount of damage to my car since the SMR is so mild, but I just was hoping you guys could reassure me. How safe/mild is 3M when used with the PC and a white foam polishing pad?
 
I used the SMR with a white PC foam pad on my black car and it worked great. Black hides nothing. I was really careful to not stop in any one place with the PC. I just kept it moving in a flowing motion then gradually decreased pressure as the SMR started to dry. That made the SMR almost disappear. After the SMR I put just one coat of wax on and it looked brilliant.



As far as going over it 3 or 4 times. That probably still wouldn't remove more clearcoat than 1 pass of a medium cut compound. After the SMR is wiped off can you see the any swirling patterns from the PC?
 
No, I don't see any no swirling patterns at all -- even when looking with a flashlight. The finish looks totally clean.



Let's see, I did one panel maybe twice by hand with SMR (which left a haze) and then two or three times with SMR & the PC (this is the same panel where I had to use the scratch remover in one spot). I did one door twice with SMR & the PC, and I did another panel two or three times with the PC. I should still have plenty of paint left to work with in the future, right?



I remember reading in David B.'s detailing tips that he polishes using FI-2 or SMR about twice a year. Over the life of the car, it seems like the additional passes I made shouldn't matter too much.



I understand that you shouldn't be polishing every day with SMR and the PC, but as an initial surface prep, and then maybe twice a year (if that) to remove swirls as needed, shouldn't it be relatively safe?



FWIW, I used a very small amount of SMR (maybe a little bigger than a nickel) to do each pass.
 
Should be no problem - SMR is still very mild. Still you can't expect miracles. If you can feel a scratch, it is definitely too deep to remove with SMR, and might be deep enough to endanger the clear coat to remove it. I think it is better to work on scratches like this by hand, then use the machine to buff out the entire car. and I would think that a max of 2 passes with the PC should be enough - otherwise, if you're still seeing swirls all over, start with something more aggressive like FI-II.



On individual scratches, try Scratch-X (I finally found some at Target, believe it or not). I was really, really impressed with it the other day. Use a foam applicator by hand, heavy finger pressure and stroke in the direction of the scratch. Try 1 or 2 applications - work the material well. YMMV - depends upon the paint. worked better on my friend's 360 than on the porsche - I'm not sure if this means the Porsche has harder paint but that is my suspicion.
 
Thanks carguy-



There was only one scratch that I could feel, and I attacked that one by hand a while ago with 3M Scratch Remover (which, as far as I can tell, is a bit less abrasive than the Fine Cut rubbing compound). It took some elbow grease, but I finally got that scratch out. I figured that was roughly equivalent to wet-sanding the scratch, so I figure I'm safe. Besides, that was only a small spot-fix. I wound up going over that entire area with SMR and PC a few times to get rid of the haze that the Scratch Remover and my hand-applied SMR attempts left.



All of the other scratches I've attempted to fix I couldn't feel with my fingernail. However, I've made multiple passes with the PC/SMR combo because I'd prefer to do that than use something more abrasive once. My scratch/swirl problem is by-and-large gone now, but there are a few scratches here-and-there (which, incidentally, I can't feel with my nail) that I've given up on since I'm too chicken to use anything more abrasive than SMR.



I just want to make sure that if I need to readdress these areas sometime down the line with another SMR application I won't bust through the clearcoat. It is pretty apparent that SMR is really mild since it wouldn't get out anything more than minor scratches and swirls even after multiple passes.



One other thing...is Scratch-X abrasive? If so, it'd have to be more abrasive than SMR, in which case I'd be very reluctant to use it.
 
Hi - yeah I'm the same way - I don't expect to get every scratch out. I know I COULD, but it would be a lot of work, and the car is going to have new scratches in a week anyway. Better to save the clearcoat.



I honestly don't know how abrasive Scratch-X is. On the Porsche it didn't seem to perform much better than SMR. But on that ferari it was a "miracle drug". The label says "if you can't get it out with this, you need a professional." I don't know how much weight to put in that. I think it is worth a try, though. It certainly has fillers too - it leaves a very nice, ready to wax finish.
 
Schwa,



Congratulations on getting the marring out of your clear-coat. I remember you from the Vette forum as well as your earlier thread.

From what I've read about clear-coats and the effect PC-ing has on them, I'm sure you are fine for many more PC-ing sessions with SMR.
 
Thanks Intermezzo! That's what I wanted to hear. I think I'm going to quit while I'm ahead with the SMR/PC on the areas I've already done (still need to do the hood and decklid, though ;) ).



My problem is that since the SMR looks so good, and since its pretty darned cold out, I don't want to Dawn wash. So, I'm forced to apply Zaino right over top of the SMR (after I've wiped as much off as a can with Z-6, of course). The Zaino isn't going on all that smoothly, but I figure that'll improve with a few applications. Plus, I'm not all that concerned with durability since I'll certainly wash off all of the SMR's oils with regular washings long before the Zaino comes off on its own.



Apparently the SMR's diminishing abrasives and the PC are a match made in heaven. Thanks for all of the suggestions and advice!
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Schwa72 [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Apparently the SMR's diminishing abrasives and the PC are a match made in heaven. Thanks for all of the suggestions and advice! [/b]</blockquote> I totally agree. The PC also makes Finnesse It II perform much better than a hand application imo.

I just got the chance to work on a friends red 1983 Porsche 944. The paint looked dull and oxidized especially the hood. First I washed the car with 3M's Car Shampoo. My first small test area for the FI II quickly told me that this car did not have a clear coat. The test area looked good so I used FI II on the hood only with a white foam pad on the PC. Then I did the whole car with a white foam pad and SMR for dark colors. I did one half of the car then stopped to buff and it all buffed off easily. I followed that up with a coat of 3M liquid Showcar Wax on a terry applicator with the PC.

Wow the results were pretty phenomenal. With my cars it is about degrees of shinyness. They always look pretty good because I keep them up. This car however really showed how well these products work together with the PC because of the drastic change from before to after. :bounce
 
Question for your veterans...

While working on my Taurus detail... I opted to use the aforementioned pad and original formulation of M105. Throughout the course of the detail, I noticed that the pad itself was slowly breaking apart.

My process:
- prime pad (KBM) with M105, making sure not to over-saturate the pad
- added a drop or two of product to the pad
- spread the pad on the worked surface, proceeded to work the surface

- after every pass, I would spin the pad on the FLEX and use the Edge conditioning brush, orange with nylon bristles
- blast the pad with pad spinning with compressed air, then added some more product and moved on to the next section

When using this same tool, FLEX and cyan pads with M105 with David (weekendwarrior), I didn't have the same issue with the pad... Is the issue with the M105 (original formula) not being condusive to this type of application? I mean it does have rotary and hand use only pictured on bottle....

Probably a silly question, but I figured I would post and understand the differences in the M105 formulations, and potentially is there a flaw in my application...

Thanks for viewing!
 
Chris, I have been using orig. M105 with the tang pads with no issues. The only time I have "worn" into a pad is using a air nozzle with a rubber tip. I was actually using the rubber tip to remove some of the excess polish on the pad. This is the only time that I have seen excessive wear on a tang pad.

I have a few of the cyan pads, but don't find the need to use them yet.

I wonder if the brush you are using while spinning the pad on the machine is the cause of the early or excessive wear on the pad. Whenever I brush a pad, I just do it with the machine off.
 
I have and used both the cyan and Tang pads .I also used the old and new 105 and also own the same brush to clean the pads.So far IMO the cyan pads just don't hold up very well no matter how i clean them using the brush with the machine off or using my air compressor with the air pressure set low not to blow apart the pad.From what i have read these pads are all over the place in how they are wearing out.Some say no problem some say they wearing out very fast.Some blame that the pads aren't dry enough.
At this point i have no idea myself what's causing this .
 
I have also had issues with the Lake Country Hydro Cyan Pads using them only on a Rotary at speeds no faster then 3.

Have primed them only with Meguiars #34 per instructions, cleaned them while in use only with a clean towel wet with Meguiars #34, and washed them with the Lake Country System 2000 Pad Washer and Snappy Clean.

I now have 6 of 8 (the first 2 I threw away, I was so mad), that have literally shredded, torn themselves apart. If you continue to use them while they are shredding they will cover your area with tiny bits of blue foam that get everywhere and clog up your microfiber towels, so do yourself a favor and dont go there.

Have contacted the PadMan; he promised to help but its been going on about a month now and after a 2nd reminder, he has yet to follow through on his promise to help...

So I am stuck with Hydro Cyan pads I am hesitant to use, because I will just shred another one and add it to the pile. At $9.99 each, I am losing on this deal big time...

Dan F.
 
I would advise against using a brush on these ones. I started seeing the same problem, then used just a terry cloth towel to clean, then just switched pads when it got too clogged. The brush seemed to tear up the foam like you said.
 
Cyan Pads

Hey Guys, I hope all is going well. There has been some discussion about the Cyan pads and lifespan. What I can say is that the tearing is a characteristic of the foam. I have some of the original prototypes that are still working well. They do have a tendancy to promote heat, which may cause the pad to start breaking down. I would suggest no pressure on the pad when in use, and for cleaning, I would suggest throwing them ion a 5 gallon bucket with hot water and 1-1.5 cups of an APC, Let them soak for about 20 minutes, the rinse and let air dry. I can understand frustration about buying a pad and it tearing. If there are any problems, please feel free to contact me here at the factory. eric@lakecountrymfg.com
 
The Pad Man said:
Hey Guys, I hope all is going well. There has been some discussion about the Cyan pads and lifespan. What I can say is that the tearing is a characteristic of the foam. I have some of the original prototypes that are still working well. They do have a tendancy to promote heat, which may cause the pad to start breaking down. I would suggest no pressure on the pad when in use, and for cleaning, I would suggest throwing them ion a 5 gallon bucket with hot water and 1-1.5 cups of an APC, Let them soak for about 20 minutes, the rinse and let air dry. I can understand frustration about buying a pad and it tearing. If there are any problems, please feel free to contact me here at the factory. eric@lakecountrymfg.com
Click to expand...

Eric, thanks for the info. I hate to read your "no pressure" suggestion, as I have been really inpressed with these pads with M105 via the KBM method (which utilizes a lot of pressure). I too have noticed some wear on my cyan pads from use with the KBM, and have noticed that my Lake Country pad cleaner seems to chew them up as well.

This week, I am going to test the Meguiar's burgundy pads against the cyan pads with the KBM to see which cuts more, and finishes better.
 
The Pad Man said:
Hey Guys, I hope all is going well. There has been some discussion about the Cyan pads and lifespan. What I can say is that the tearing is a characteristic of the foam. I have some of the original prototypes that are still working well. They do have a tendancy to promote heat, which may cause the pad to start breaking down. I would suggest no pressure on the pad when in use, and for cleaning, I would suggest throwing them ion a 5 gallon bucket with hot water and 1-1.5 cups of an APC, Let them soak for about 20 minutes, the rinse and let air dry. I can understand frustration about buying a pad and it tearing. If there are any problems, please feel free to contact me here at the factory. eric@lakecountrymfg.com
Click to expand...

Thanks for responding and providing some insight.
 
It is really too bad that we now find out that the Cyan Hydro/Tangerine Hydro pads have to be used with no pressure, they cant be washed in the very pad washer that the company sold me to use to clean their pads, and now I have to wash them separately from all the other pads I use in a week of Detailing.

I should have asked the following questions before I ever bought them --

Were these pads designed to be used with a Rotary Machine?

Is the foam of these pads stronger or weaker than the original classic pads?
How were these pads tested? On assembly lines with new, clean, paint only? On all types of paint with all types of correction problems?

What was the failure rate of pads used only on clean paint vs pads used to correct paint with multiple problems ?

What was the best, safest, process to clean the pads after extensive use?

What was the average lifespan of the pads used for heavy paint corrections ?

I think going forward, it might be good to have the pad manufacturer provide more information regarding new products that are supposed to be able to do more and save Detailer time here.

I might have been able to save a little time with these pads, because of the wide range of correction they have, but if they are going to disintegrate way sooner than the average Classic Pad formulation, they might be best targeted to the "Casual" User, and not the Professional/Production work, etc., Detailer.

Just thinking out loud here, but perhaps these pads should have been advertised and sold for short, delicate, use with special cleaning procedure after use

Dan F
 
Stokdgs said:
It is really too bad that we now find out that the Cyan Hydro/Tangerine Hydro pads have to be used with no pressure, they cant be washed in the very pad washer that the company sold me to use to clean their pads, and now I have to wash them separately from all the other pads I use in a week of Detailing.

I should have asked the following questions before I ever bought them --

Were these pads designed to be used with a Rotary Machine?These pads can be used on rotary or DA.

Is the foam of these pads stronger or weaker than the original classic pads?The foam is a completely different formulation, so I cant say if stronger or weaker.
How were these pads tested?The pads were tested in house by me using a PCXP on speed 6, on my personal vehicle. I purposely used as much pressure as possible to flatten the pad. These have also been sent out on smaller form to a couple of major OEM's. On assembly lines with new, clean, paint only? On all types of paint with all types of correction problems?

What was the failure rate of pads used only on clean paint vs pads used to correct paint with multiple problems ?I did notice that the foam may break down after extreme heat. That I cannot do anything with for it is a characteristic of the foam.

What was the best, safest, process to clean the pads after extensive use? I personally throw them in a bucket of hot water with Simple Green or ARO in it and let them soak, agitate by hand, rinse and let dry.

What was the average lifespan of the pads used for heavy paint corrections ? I have some of the original foam samples that have been used for heavy paint correction, and even though a tad bit softer from the heat, still work great.

I think going forward, it might be good to have the pad manufacturer provide more information regarding new products that are supposed to be able to do more and save Detailer time here. The thing that I cannot control is that everyone has different methods, which all act different on pads.

I might have been able to save a little time with these pads, because of the wide range of correction they have, but if they are going to disintegrate way sooner than the average Classic Pad formulation, they might be best targeted to the "Casual" User, and not the Professional/Production work, etc., Detailer.

Just thinking out loud here, but perhaps these pads should have been advertised and sold for short, delicate, use with special cleaning procedure after use

Dan F
Click to expand...

I hopr this helps a little.

Eric
 
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