i had just finished doing my first detail. i used poorboys line with ex as the lsp. i thought you could layer different carnaubas at least a few times , everyone talks about all the different layers they do here but, yesterday on here somebody said they wanted to use s100 over nxt and somebody responded that s100 has solvents in it that would break up the nxt ? i am looking to experiment alittle, i wanted to try s100 or # 26 over my ex. i was going to try both, one on each side of the hood, i thought they were both pure carnaubas ( at least as pure as you can get ) s100 dosent have solvents in it does it ? i want a good carnauba to try over the ex that wont interfere with the ex, any suggestions would be appreciated !:up also, i have left over , meqs deep crystal , liquid carnauba, would that be the same as # 26 ?
layering carnauba questions
- Thread starter bigsled
- Start date
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
Layering:
By applying another product on top of one that has already cross-linked you can increase its density (up to a point) the thin film of product that's applied isn't really another layer. Two to four cross-linked (cured) applications are usually considered optimum
One thing that will negate the applied product density is lack of clarity, the base coat (that contains the vehicleâ€â„¢s colour) is covered / protected by a clear coat of urethane paint, which as well as providing protection is clear to enable the paint colour to show through and provide the colour with depth.
Any product applied on top of the clear coat needs to be optically clear (transparent) otherwise both the paint colour and its depth of shine will be muted. One of the problems with â€Ëœlayeringâ€â„¢ some polymers and/or waxes is that they tend to occlude (become less opaque) as the thickness increases
Solvents provide a lubricant and aid the adherence process by working their way into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the previous `layer' softening it, providing each subsequent applications carrying agent (solvent, oils silicones or emulsion) are not so concentrated that they degrade or remove (as in the case of a cleaner wax) what has been previously applied.
The carrier system (solvents) allows the product to fill and level the paint film surface to produce a flat surface (this flat level surface is more pronounced with polymers due to their molecular alignment characteristics). This level surface optimizes the paint film surface's desired optical properties (i.e. surface reflectance, clarity, gloss, and depth of shine)
Also be aware that the both the product and the foam pad may be non-abrasive, but application pressure if not kept to an absolute minimum and using use a very light and even pressure, may re-introduce surface marring and/or removal of the previously applied product.
You could also try this layering technique-Add a layer of liquid Carnauba wax to a paste Carnauba wax; allow it to cross-linking for 2-4 hours, to produce a deep â€Ëœwet-lookâ€â„¢ shine.
JonM
By applying another product on top of one that has already cross-linked you can increase its density (up to a point) the thin film of product that's applied isn't really another layer. Two to four cross-linked (cured) applications are usually considered optimum
One thing that will negate the applied product density is lack of clarity, the base coat (that contains the vehicleâ€â„¢s colour) is covered / protected by a clear coat of urethane paint, which as well as providing protection is clear to enable the paint colour to show through and provide the colour with depth.
Any product applied on top of the clear coat needs to be optically clear (transparent) otherwise both the paint colour and its depth of shine will be muted. One of the problems with â€Ëœlayeringâ€â„¢ some polymers and/or waxes is that they tend to occlude (become less opaque) as the thickness increases
Solvents provide a lubricant and aid the adherence process by working their way into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the previous `layer' softening it, providing each subsequent applications carrying agent (solvent, oils silicones or emulsion) are not so concentrated that they degrade or remove (as in the case of a cleaner wax) what has been previously applied.
The carrier system (solvents) allows the product to fill and level the paint film surface to produce a flat surface (this flat level surface is more pronounced with polymers due to their molecular alignment characteristics). This level surface optimizes the paint film surface's desired optical properties (i.e. surface reflectance, clarity, gloss, and depth of shine)
Also be aware that the both the product and the foam pad may be non-abrasive, but application pressure if not kept to an absolute minimum and using use a very light and even pressure, may re-introduce surface marring and/or removal of the previously applied product.
You could also try this layering technique-Add a layer of liquid Carnauba wax to a paste Carnauba wax; allow it to cross-linking for 2-4 hours, to produce a deep â€Ëœwet-lookâ€â„¢ shine.
JonM
thanks for the info.. say john, what are the chances of micromarring ? it seems that everyone here layers, i would be very carefull of course, or is it so risky that i'm better off not trying it ? i was going to reapply lsp every month or two anyway.. at that time ( after a month or two, do i still risk micromarring since at least half of privious applied product should be gone anyway? does this apply to carnauba lsp's only, or poly's too ? how about when people use in between spray waxes, does that micromarr as well ?
Accumulator
Well-known member
bigsled- I reapply/layer my LSPs (both carnaubas asn synthetics) all the time, no micromarring (I'll often go more than a year between polishings on my "good" cars). I do spot-clay if there's a chance that the surface isn't perfectly clean, but I don't see any reason why you'd get micromarring if you use the right applicators/buffing towels.
wannafbody
wannafbody
some manufacturers claim their carnaubas can be layered on itself as well (collinite) but I'm not sure that with solvent content thats really possible-I wonder if what really occurs is one layer melting into the previous one
Accumulator
Well-known member
Bigsled- OK, this is a guess (and I'm probably not too hot at reading TOGWT's mind 
) but I'd say that beyond the possibility of abrasive contamination coming into play, there might be a concern about damaging the previously applied layers of LSP, causing micromarring in that LSP, but not the paint itself. More likely if the solvents/etc. in the subsequent applications react with/soften the previously applied stuff. So...
A) consider spit-shine type applications
B) be careful applying liquids (generally high in solvents) over pastes (generally lower in solvents)
I *think* TOGWT's "apply liquid to paste" is an intentional variation on the latter point. That you'd apply the liquid, allowing it to "melt/mix" with the previously applied paste, and then buff off whatever doesn't "stick".
I don't imagine you'd want to actually mix the two products together in a container.
But again, I'm just playing mind reader here
) but I'd say that beyond the possibility of abrasive contamination coming into play, there might be a concern about damaging the previously applied layers of LSP, causing micromarring in that LSP, but not the paint itself. More likely if the solvents/etc. in the subsequent applications react with/soften the previously applied stuff. So...A) consider spit-shine type applications
B) be careful applying liquids (generally high in solvents) over pastes (generally lower in solvents)
I *think* TOGWT's "apply liquid to paste" is an intentional variation on the latter point. That you'd apply the liquid, allowing it to "melt/mix" with the previously applied paste, and then buff off whatever doesn't "stick".
I don't imagine you'd want to actually mix the two products together in a container.
But again, I'm just playing mind reader here
Glossmaster
New member
Layer the liquid wax over the paste wax. No need for mixing the in a bottle....
Glossmaster
New member
I, too, should clarify my previous post. The previous question was about layering the paste with liquid or mixing both together. While mixing both together is an interesting concept, ( one I've never done ) I believe what was meant was to layer the liquid wax over the paste. As for me, i prefer paste waxes. I'm not too fond of liquid carnaubas. The only liquids I use are polishes and synthetic waxes/sealants.
Accumulator
Well-known member
BlkTac05 said:
Same here.
imported_Intermezzo
New member
Diminishing returns & layerability are important concerns when it comes to applying multiple layers of carnauba wax. But back when Meguiars Hand Polish + Blitz was my bread & butter product, I sure as heck enjoyed applying coat after coat of Blitz on our jet black BMW. I don't know if I was adding to the shine or not, but applying a coat of a traditional, 'hard' carnauba paste wax was sure enjoyable.
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
Accumulator- let me know where my mind was when you read it as I lost it long agoâ€Â¦LOL
1.Apply a Carnauba paste wax, after a doing a smear test carefully (to avoid micro marring) apply a liquid wax allow to dry (30-60 minutes) and buff to a gloss.
2.Add a very thin layer of Carnauba wax as a final coat to the synthetic wax and let it dry for 0.5-1.0 hour, then without removing the base layer, increase the density of the wax by (carefully to avoid micro marring) by adding more wax, allow to dry to a haze and remove. After buffing with a soft 100% cotton cloth it will produce a deep `wet-look' finish.
The consensus of opinion is that three layers will give the maximum possible shine, IMO anything after that suffers from the product clouding, defeating the purpose of layering.
JonM
1.Apply a Carnauba paste wax, after a doing a smear test carefully (to avoid micro marring) apply a liquid wax allow to dry (30-60 minutes) and buff to a gloss.
2.Add a very thin layer of Carnauba wax as a final coat to the synthetic wax and let it dry for 0.5-1.0 hour, then without removing the base layer, increase the density of the wax by (carefully to avoid micro marring) by adding more wax, allow to dry to a haze and remove. After buffing with a soft 100% cotton cloth it will produce a deep `wet-look' finish.
The consensus of opinion is that three layers will give the maximum possible shine, IMO anything after that suffers from the product clouding, defeating the purpose of layering.
JonM
Accumulator
Well-known member
TOGWT- Heh heh, LOL indeed Re reading your lost mind 
The layering-without-removal method sounds familiar, is it something I might've read in one of Griot's handbooks?
The layering-without-removal method sounds familiar, is it something I might've read in one of Griot's handbooks?
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
Accumulator said:TOGWT- Heh heh, LOL indeed Re reading your lost mind
The layering-without-removal method sounds familiar, is it something I might've read in one of Griot's handbooks?
Before Groit's went over to the dark side (polymers, LOL) he and other contributors to his handbooks used to post some great concours tips for Carnauba waxes
JonM
Bill D
Hooked For Life
How does this process compare to the spit shining technique? I spit shine Souveran with Crystal Mist as the "spit".
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
Bill D said:
I will try the 'spit shine' method one of these days, last time was on a pair of size 8 black RAF dress shoes...years ago
JonM
TOGWT said:
so the steps outlined here would be:
1. apply a carnauba paste wax, allow to haze
2. carefully apply a liquid wax, allow to dry (30-60 minutes), then buff to a gloss.
3. apply another coat of carnauba wax (paste or liquid?), allow to dry (30-60 minutes), then remove.
and are you removing all 3 layers of wax? or just the top two and trying not to disturb the first (bottom) layer?
this sounds interesting to try. thanks.
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
so the steps outlined here would be:
1. apply a carnauba paste wax, allow to haze (correct)
2. carefully apply a liquid wax, allow to dry (30-60 minutes), then buff to a gloss.(correct)
3. apply another coat of carnauba wax (paste), allow to dry (30-60 minutes), then remove.
Q: And are you removing all 3 layers of wax? (no)
or just the top two and trying not to disturb the first (bottom) layer?9no)
A: The goal is to increase the density of the wax while removing as little as possible with subsequent paste wax applications
JonM
1. apply a carnauba paste wax, allow to haze (correct)
2. carefully apply a liquid wax, allow to dry (30-60 minutes), then buff to a gloss.(correct)
3. apply another coat of carnauba wax (paste), allow to dry (30-60 minutes), then remove.
Q: And are you removing all 3 layers of wax? (no)
or just the top two and trying not to disturb the first (bottom) layer?9no)
A: The goal is to increase the density of the wax while removing as little as possible with subsequent paste wax applications
JonM