Yes Bill, the subject has come up again. I hope i dont get attacked like the last time Bill, because this is only a question to others. I spoke to somenone at work that shows cars, and uses Klasse. He and other peolpe in his group that also love the product. His take on all of this: He says that the woo methode is great to use for the inpatint detailer. Why? The woo methode causes you to get smudging or smearing. This is caused due to moving the product from one place to another before it has time to cure, most of it bieng absorbed by your mf towel. He says that waiting 1hr minimum time before removig to make sure that it has bonded. After 1 hr more hazing and more of a powderd look it will have, making it very easy to take off, and less absorbed by your mf towel. The thing with klasse is that it is a differnt animal than carnuba, it takes time for a polymer to bond. Climate makes a big difference in the time it takes. This is why he uses this tech, not knowing when actual bonding occurs. He and his show car friends use this tech. Put on during afternoon, take of next morning, using no QD. The reasoning is that is to ensure that bonding has occured. Well this seems a little extreme to me, but he clearly said that this product is not for the average user. He said that polymers are made to use with patients. Acording to him, he said that many of the show car gooroos will actually wait even longer before removing. Well, Klasse has a h-ll of a product that many people love. It is a shame that they cannot clearly back up all the different questions that are out there. I dont mean to step on anyones toes, but when i heard of this i was very curious. Yes i was one of the woo users, but am deffinetly cosidering this methode ( 1 hr wait time)Bill i know that you know a lot about this product, do you have any input.I dont think that these guys are comletely waisting thier time. Sorry if its old news but im sure many of us are curious about this. Without attacking me , your input would be greatly appreciated ( no hard feeling) Thanks
Klasse / TO WOO OR NOT
- Thread starter jab
- Start date
Jab,
Everyone has different opinions and different methods for using the chemicals. Different things work better for different people.
I, as a moderate Klasse user, disagree with everything your car show friend said.
I first started using SG with the waiting method. I hated it. I swore off SG, and use AIO and PUPP or Blackfire, as they were much easier to use. No matter how long I waited on my black daily driver, the substance was never easier to wipe off, and there was always a hard, dried residue left on the car that I would have to remove with a QD. I hated that as well.
I've since been using Bill's method. I get compliments on the car daily. After two weeks of not washing my car due to the cold, I still had co-workers asking me how I kept my car so shiney.
My point in telling you this, is to show that there's no loss of durability or shine by using the WOO method. I've also never had a single streak this way. Not once. I apply SG once a month, and have been since mid summer. Not one streak, not one problem with removal, and not one instance where I thought the SG wasn't bonding properly. The shine on the car is blinding, the durability is outstanding, and the finish is super slick.
I don't consider myself to be impatatient, and if I felt there were any benefits to leaving the product on, I certinly would do that. I have yet to find one. Your arguements as to why the methods we are using are incorrect seem to lack any hard evidence. If you were achieving something that I wasn't, then i'd be more interested. It seems you're doing 3x the work that I am to achieve the same look and protection, and I'm not sure I understand why.
Bills Method takes a great product, and makes using it a grade school chore. Nothing wrong with that. You don't need to work your *** off to get good results with this stuff....
Here are some shots of my car (pages 4 and 5) on the Klasse twins, using Bill's Method. Have a look. Keep in mind that the car is a 96, is a black daily driver, and has over 100k on the clock.
http://miata.cardomain.com/memberpage/205969/4
Everyone has different opinions and different methods for using the chemicals. Different things work better for different people.
I, as a moderate Klasse user, disagree with everything your car show friend said.
I first started using SG with the waiting method. I hated it. I swore off SG, and use AIO and PUPP or Blackfire, as they were much easier to use. No matter how long I waited on my black daily driver, the substance was never easier to wipe off, and there was always a hard, dried residue left on the car that I would have to remove with a QD. I hated that as well.
I've since been using Bill's method. I get compliments on the car daily. After two weeks of not washing my car due to the cold, I still had co-workers asking me how I kept my car so shiney.
My point in telling you this, is to show that there's no loss of durability or shine by using the WOO method. I've also never had a single streak this way. Not once. I apply SG once a month, and have been since mid summer. Not one streak, not one problem with removal, and not one instance where I thought the SG wasn't bonding properly. The shine on the car is blinding, the durability is outstanding, and the finish is super slick.
I don't consider myself to be impatatient, and if I felt there were any benefits to leaving the product on, I certinly would do that. I have yet to find one. Your arguements as to why the methods we are using are incorrect seem to lack any hard evidence. If you were achieving something that I wasn't, then i'd be more interested. It seems you're doing 3x the work that I am to achieve the same look and protection, and I'm not sure I understand why.
Bills Method takes a great product, and makes using it a grade school chore. Nothing wrong with that. You don't need to work your *** off to get good results with this stuff....
Here are some shots of my car (pages 4 and 5) on the Klasse twins, using Bill's Method. Have a look. Keep in mind that the car is a 96, is a black daily driver, and has over 100k on the clock.
http://miata.cardomain.com/memberpage/205969/4
Nobody is disputing the validity of waiting 1 hr, 24 hrs, etc. before waiting to buff SG. The point that everyone is trying to make and that you are having such a hard time grasping is that there is no difference in shine, reflection, beading, sheeting, or durability by using the WOWO method.
Why don't use do half of your hood using WOWO and half of your hood waiting a few hours and then draw your own conclusions? I will be shocked if you can tell the difference after 1 day or 100 days. Please let me know if there is.
Why don't use do half of your hood using WOWO and half of your hood waiting a few hours and then draw your own conclusions? I will be shocked if you can tell the difference after 1 day or 100 days. Please let me know if there is.
Jngrbrdman
New member
Please take these comments for what they are worth. I'm not trying to rip anyone's head off or anything. I'm just a little disappointed in the discussions lately.
I think people are losing sight of the ball on this one. People are getting too caught up in the "best way to do something" and are forgetting that the old saying of "whatever works" still works just fine. There is no 'car care bible' where you will be judged on your methods and procedures. For crying out loud, let's just detail and do it however it works best for you. If people would just realize that there is no one right way to do things then we could save a lot of arguments. Its like everybody has to draw lines in the sand and defend their process to the death or something. Can't we go back to arguing about if Klasse is better than Zaino or something? :lol At least then we aren't arguing about something as individual as which process is better. For crying out loud, if the end result is the same, then does it really matter? Just do whatever works for you.
I think people are losing sight of the ball on this one. People are getting too caught up in the "best way to do something" and are forgetting that the old saying of "whatever works" still works just fine. There is no 'car care bible' where you will be judged on your methods and procedures. For crying out loud, let's just detail and do it however it works best for you. If people would just realize that there is no one right way to do things then we could save a lot of arguments. Its like everybody has to draw lines in the sand and defend their process to the death or something. Can't we go back to arguing about if Klasse is better than Zaino or something? :lol At least then we aren't arguing about something as individual as which process is better. For crying out loud, if the end result is the same, then does it really matter? Just do whatever works for you.
imported_Intermezzo
New member
Your friends are confusing bonding with curing. Yes, synthetics like Klasse SG take from 1-7 days to cure, but bonding to the paint surface occurs immediately. If they are getting smears when doing to WOO method, then they are applying it too thickly.
The above is just my opinion... I could be wrong. However, one thing I KNOW I'm not wrong about is that BillNorth is in no way an impatient detailer. In fact, he's one of the most meticulous and patient detailers here. If you do a search of the archives and read his posts, I think you'll agree with me.
The above is just my opinion... I could be wrong. However, one thing I KNOW I'm not wrong about is that BillNorth is in no way an impatient detailer. In fact, he's one of the most meticulous and patient detailers here. If you do a search of the archives and read his posts, I think you'll agree with me.
As a Klasse user who has used both the 'wait 1 hour' method, and the WOO (or WOWO - who knows?), I can offer the following:
WOO/WOWO is much easier to wipe off than wait 1 hour. After waiting 1 hour, trying to remove the SG was like trying to rub sticker adhesive off of the paint. With the WOO/WOWO method, the SG came right off, with no use of quick detailer necessary.
It is now 6 weeks since I did the wife's Passat with the 'wait one hour' (hereafter to be known as the WOH - since we don't have nearly enough acronyms here at Autopia), and my Benz with the WOO/WOWO. Neither car exhibited the dreaded streaking or hazing that I've read about when I've searched the forums.
As of now, there is no noticable difference in appearance, or beading/sheeting performance between the two cars.
What does this mean? That the WOH method merely increases the amount of effort that must be used to remove the SG, without providing an appreciable benefit over WOO/WOWO.
As I haven't ever waited 18-24 hours, I can't comment on SG removal/appearance/durability after this length of time.
I would be interested to know the results, if anyone wants to do a comparison on the WOO/WOWO vs. WOH vs. W18H.
PS: I hope that we can tone down the discussions on this matter a little. I like the fact that at Autopia, more than one person can be right at the same time. Let's keep it that way, and we'll all enjoy it more. . .
WOO/WOWO is much easier to wipe off than wait 1 hour. After waiting 1 hour, trying to remove the SG was like trying to rub sticker adhesive off of the paint. With the WOO/WOWO method, the SG came right off, with no use of quick detailer necessary.
It is now 6 weeks since I did the wife's Passat with the 'wait one hour' (hereafter to be known as the WOH - since we don't have nearly enough acronyms here at Autopia), and my Benz with the WOO/WOWO. Neither car exhibited the dreaded streaking or hazing that I've read about when I've searched the forums.
As of now, there is no noticable difference in appearance, or beading/sheeting performance between the two cars.
What does this mean? That the WOH method merely increases the amount of effort that must be used to remove the SG, without providing an appreciable benefit over WOO/WOWO.
As I haven't ever waited 18-24 hours, I can't comment on SG removal/appearance/durability after this length of time.
I would be interested to know the results, if anyone wants to do a comparison on the WOO/WOWO vs. WOH vs. W18H.
PS: I hope that we can tone down the discussions on this matter a little. I like the fact that at Autopia, more than one person can be right at the same time. Let's keep it that way, and we'll all enjoy it more. . .
raymond_ho2002
New member
jab said:
As direct of an answer as is currently available, from klassedirect.com:
http://www.klassedirect.com/smalklashigg.html
They mention the old fashioned, wait-to-dry way, but don't specify any drying time. They also mention bill north's way as the "recommended method."
Of course, the best method would be for you to do a half and half test, as outlawtitan has mentioned.
Also, a search through the archives will show that time and time again over the past several years, many people have argued over the importance of drying time and bonding time. I think that the point bill north was trying to make was that you are trying to present old material as new. The points you make have already been considered THE established method to use klasse. Just a few months ago, the automatic response to the question of "how do i use klasse?" would have been exactly what you describe. When veteran klasse users speak of their new experiences with WOO, they have always compared it to the results they are used to getting with 1-hour-dry or 24-hour-dry method.
TortoiseAWD
New member
I'd like to see the acronym changed to reflect "Wipe-On/Off Technique". w00t!tnoy66 said:Slight deviation......
....So if we do 2 layers of SG with the WOO method would that be WOO WOO :nixweiss
3 layers WOO WOO WOO
:wavey
That way, there's be no confusion with Bubb Rubb and the whole whistle-tip craze.
Tort
SK2003TypeS
New member
LMAO !!!!! Woooo Woooooo !!!!
disasnguy
Obsessed Detailer
TortoiseAWD said:I'd like to see the acronym changed to reflect "Wipe-On/Off Technique". w00t!
That way, there's be no confusion with Bubb Rubb and the whole whistle-tip craze.
Tort
They go WOOOO WHOOOOOO!
disasnguy
Obsessed Detailer
on a serious note. jab has a good point about the bonding process of klasse. no one will know for SURE whether their argument is sound. both methods are valid but there is no way of knowing the truth value without a real chemical analysis of some sort. basically i agree with jab that all the "findings" are based on speculation. but that's all we can do until we find some cold hard FACTS. who knows? that may never happen since there really is no way of contacting the makers of Klasse. i've let klasse dry over night and removal was a breeze. it worked for me but it might not work for someone else. WHATEVER WORKS right? nevertheless... i gotta try that WOOOOOOO WOOOOOO method! >=)
One small disagreement with your statement 'no one will know for SURE whether their argument is sound'.
As suggested above, doing 1/2 hood with WOO WOO and the other 1/2 with W24H, and then observing the results (after an extended period of time) will tell us all we need to know.
We don't need to know the degree of polymerization, or any other technical measurements.
What we are really concerned with is 'which is more durable/better looking' (and of course, easier also factors in).
If the side of the hood with the WOOO method appears the same (shine, beading/sheeting, depth) as the W24H side, then we can effectively say that they both have the same results - regardless of whether or not we have technical data for each side.
So, given that it can be done . . . who's gonna try it?
As suggested above, doing 1/2 hood with WOO WOO and the other 1/2 with W24H, and then observing the results (after an extended period of time) will tell us all we need to know.
We don't need to know the degree of polymerization, or any other technical measurements.
What we are really concerned with is 'which is more durable/better looking' (and of course, easier also factors in).
If the side of the hood with the WOOO method appears the same (shine, beading/sheeting, depth) as the W24H side, then we can effectively say that they both have the same results - regardless of whether or not we have technical data for each side.
So, given that it can be done . . . who's gonna try it?
disasnguy
Obsessed Detailer
i agree with dmatre on the with half the hood idea. don't get me wrong i've thought of that too. but what i meant was that "no one will know for SURE whether or not the argument is sound" was that there are many factors that influence that kind of test. we as autopians may accept this inductive reasoning because it's strong. whichever side looks better after a long time determines the effectiveness of the WOO method or traditional. but in order to know 100% on the bonding, a thorough test must be performed. i think that's what he was trying to prove. personally, i wouldn't care for the all the technical measurements as long as "it works for me"
andriver
Detailing Hobbyist
I have been thinking about this thread and my conclusion is does it really matter? Most of the people on this site detail their cars on a regular basis that the bonding issue for durability would not make a difference. Anyway, thats the way I see it.
imported_Aurora40
New member
:rofl :lol This thread cracked me up. At first I didn't know what the heck the woo was...
Just wanted to toss out an FYI. Klassedirect.com is just a reseller like any other. Nothing official to them. I find the damp application a bit odd as Klasse SG specifically says "contains no water" so I don't know that adding water yourself is really good for it. I used to use water to buff it off, but it seemed like I didn't get quite the same durability (though it could totally be in my head).
I personally let it sit as long as possible, and any haze can be washed or QD'd off after a few days or whatever. But whatever works for you. I'm sure wiping it on and wiping it off leaves a film of SG behind. Heck, you can feel the stuff on the paint. :nixweiss
Just wanted to toss out an FYI. Klassedirect.com is just a reseller like any other. Nothing official to them. I find the damp application a bit odd as Klasse SG specifically says "contains no water" so I don't know that adding water yourself is really good for it. I used to use water to buff it off, but it seemed like I didn't get quite the same durability (though it could totally be in my head).
I personally let it sit as long as possible, and any haze can be washed or QD'd off after a few days or whatever. But whatever works for you. I'm sure wiping it on and wiping it off leaves a film of SG behind. Heck, you can feel the stuff on the paint. :nixweiss
